| Author | Message |
Jim Ryan 
Posts: 958
Since: 1/12/2008
|  3/13/2008 2:29:01 PM 
I was reading another board and Stephen brought-up this subject on moisture. Since I'd already written somewhat on this subject, I decided to go read the article he posted --via web address and I'll post it below. After reading some of it, I saw so many things that were just plain wrong, that I thought this would be a wonderful puzzle to solve, but it would be even better if we all took part in it.
Read this web site piece carefully and try to point out one thing you see as wrong and maybe why. You might not know or be able to tell us why, but you might just feel it is wrong, just say what you think is wrong and leave it at that.
Many times people know things are wrong, but they can't say why. It's called intuition---a gut feeling and more.
Anyway, the subject of the year, brought by Stephen Perrera and seconded by Jim Ryan--at least I believe, is,--http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0NSX/is_3_49/ai_114818845/pg_1
Looking forward to the input this subject deserves.
Last Edited 3/13/2008
3:02:42 PM
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Jim Ryan
Posts: 958
Since: 1/12/2008
| 3/13/2008 2:51:38 PM
From all I see, this subject sets-up to be the biggest thing in 10 years, for both the concrete industry and the floor covering industry.
Don't miss it.
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David Kern
Posts: 518
Since: 2/20/2008
| 3/13/2008 3:15:30 PM
Jim,
First of all, great article.
It seems that the consensus is somewhat divided over how moisture barriers (below slab) should be installed. Some recommendations say a 4 inch fill should be placed over the barrier, others say the slab should be directly over the barrier.
It also seems that are too many variables to consider regarding moisture even when a barrier is present, and that only so much can be done to reduce or prevent it.
Another issue is that when an installer shows up on the job, what should he assume was done during construction to protect against moisture. In most cases he would simply be guessing... again, there are simply too many variables to consider.
That is why I think our industry is starting to address the issue of moisture more intensely than it ever has.
The only reasonable solution would be to certify each installer for moisture testing as well as to make affordable accurate testing equipment.
This way, a certified installer would only need to determine moisture levels at the time of installation, and if in acceptable range, leave it up to the homeowner to approve whether the installation proceed. Once this approval is granted, the installer is off the hook (as well as the retailer or dealer) if any future problems arise concerning moisture.
I see this as the only reasonable solution to a very important issue facing our industry. If everyone is on the same page at the outset, liability will rest solely with the homeowner who approved the installation with all known and disclosed data regarding moisture levels at the start.
This is indeed a complex subject.
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Jim Ryan
Posts: 958
Since: 1/12/2008
| 3/13/2008 3:47:30 PM
quote:
Jim,
First of all, great article.
It seems that the consensus is somewhat divided over how moisture barriers (below slab) should be installed. Some recommendations say a 4 inch fill should be placed over the barrier, others say the slab should be directly over the barrier.
It also seems that are too many variables to consider regarding moisture even when a barrier is present, and that only so much can be done to reduce or prevent it.
Another issue is that when an installer shows up on the job, what should he assume was done during construction to protect against moisture. In most cases he would simply be guessing... again, there are simply too many variables to consider.
That is why I think our industry is starting to address the issue of moisture more intensely than it ever has.
The only reasonable solution would be to certify each installer for moisture testing as well as to make affordable accurate testing equipment.
This way, a certified installer would only need to determine moisture levels at the time of installation, and if in acceptable range, leave it up to the homeowner to approve whether the installation proceed. Once this approval is granted, the installer is off the hook (as well as the retailer or dealer) if any future problems arise concerning moisture.
I see this as the only reasonable solution to a very important issue facing our industry. If everyone is on the same page at the outset, liability will rest solely with the homeowner who approved the installation with all known and disclosed data regarding moisture levels at the start.
This is indeed a complex subject.
At this point David, all I have is what I believe, so it's not worth very much at this time, it's pretty much the same as all other people in and out of this and the concrete industry.
I think we need professionals from the concrete industry and the floor-covering industry to participate. I say that, because each person on each side--concrete or flooring--can bring their working knowledge to these combined subjects.
I would enjoy mediating these subjects as one subject--unless you would care to do so. You do bring a lot of knowledge from being a tile installer for what, 20 or 25 years??
I would start this discussion, by saying that all glues need some moisture fed thru the slab on a consistent basis, so the glues do not dry-out and cause the floors to lose their adhesion in that manner.
We can't afford to go from one extreme to the other,--eh??
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Jim Ryan
Posts: 958
Since: 1/12/2008
| 3/13/2008 3:54:55 PM
My take on the entire fix for both industries in the residential setting, might be about 4,000.00 per house, maybe less, if done during new construction.
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Ray Darrah
Posts: 1411
Since: 2/18/2008
| 3/13/2008 3:58:46 PM
I see only one area not visited and that is the location of the slab in relationship to surrounding soils, but maybe I missed it.
Local water must drain away from the side of the slab. Water siting against the side of the slab moves into the building as water seeks a level, and moves from the side of the slab to the interior of the slab.
I agree with this article, just had to put in my 2-cents worth.
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Jim Ryan
Posts: 958
Since: 1/12/2008
| 3/13/2008 4:01:51 PM
quote:
I see only one area not visited and that is the location of the slab in relationship to surrounding soils, but maybe I missed it.
Local water must drain away from the side of the slab. Water siting against the side of the slab moves into the building as water seeks a level, and moves from the side of the slab to the interior of the slab.
I agree with this article, just had to put in my 2-cents worth.
The sides are a good thing to look at and the article did say to block-off or cut down on all or some amount of moisture, so maybe they considered such, but didn't outright say it. Anyhow, good catch on your part Ray.
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Ray Darrah
Posts: 1411
Since: 2/18/2008
| 3/13/2008 5:52:17 PM
Thank you Jim,
I'm a darned Jeneuous
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Jim Ryan
Posts: 958
Since: 1/12/2008
| 3/13/2008 6:35:12 PM
quote:
Thank you Jim,
I'm a darned Jeneuous
Maybe, but it's spelled, genius. Oops, am I wrong? 
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Jim Ryan
Posts: 958
Since: 1/12/2008
| 3/13/2008 8:06:12 PM
Ok, here's the easy answer. Pour the concrete slab right over the rock bed, but in the rock bed, imbed several 4 inch pipes, made to withstand the pressure and years, so that as needed, the homeowner can simply hook a vaccum cleaner or suction motor to the pipes and draw-out the excess moisture from not only the rock bed, but the slab--as needed, and conversely, allow water to be poured down into the rocks to be absorbed through evaporation, into the slab as needed. Oh yea, makes these pipes with holes in them, all along the way, close to the top of the ground.
I'm thinking that about 2 to 3% moisture be allowed to stay constant in concrete.
Any better ideas?
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Jim Ryan
Posts: 958
Since: 1/12/2008
| 3/13/2008 8:12:30 PM
Now if the industry wanted to make some extra money, you could go high tech and put sensors in the concrete instead of testing by consumer and you could install a special motor to draw the air across the area below and add water as needed and monitor it by computer, but hey, make that for the richer people and make the cheaper version for the poorer people.
That way you make money from all. Just be smart and don't try to steal all you can. Just remember, you got this for nothing. At least be fair to the poor.
Last Edited 3/13/2008
8:15:02 PM
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Jim Ryan
Posts: 958
Since: 1/12/2008
| 3/13/2008 8:17:51 PM
In the richer homes, you can install moisture sensors through-out the home in different walls ------set down into the concrete and have very small access panels or a computer hooked-up to the entire system.
Last Edited 3/13/2008
8:26:19 PM
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Jim Ryan
Posts: 958
Since: 1/12/2008
| 3/13/2008 8:35:10 PM
I would mention, that concrete boats left in water become stronger over time, so it's very likely, that concrete that retains moisture over time will retain a lot of it's origional strength over the years and concrete deprived of moisture will likely dry-out and over time, crack a lot more and probably have a lot more problems.
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Jim Ryan
Posts: 958
Since: 1/12/2008
| 3/13/2008 8:46:33 PM
Oh yes, I was working in a home the other day and the owner and I were discussing moisture in slabs and he told me that he had a moisture barrier under the slab, but that his slab was poured seperately from his footers. The house was fairly new
In other words, the footers are the foundation, supporting all the major pressure from the outside walls and roof. The inside walls sit on the floating slab. My guess is that it's possible, that the inside walls could have put a huge amount of weight on the slab, even though the homeowner said the weight was suppossed to stay mainly on the footers.
The slab was poured inside the footers and was free floating.
Now in concrete, I have heard that cracks aren't really bad, unless one side of the crack falls lower than the other by at least 1/8th of an inch or maybe 1/4 of an inch.
Now in this mans house with the free floating slab, the floor cracked by one part sliding down--which is the bad way. You might not want your home poured in such a manner. However, that could have just been a coincidence, but I have seen soooo many cracks in concrete floors poured the conventional way and never once did the cracks seperate up and down, they just opened side to side, which is the good way--if there can be called a good way.
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Jim Ryan
Posts: 958
Since: 1/12/2008
| 3/13/2008 8:49:46 PM
I would think for commercial buildings, moisture could come naturally for the upper floors, by the natural evaporation from human beings and is possibly absorbed by the concrete all thruout the building. However, humidifiers and dehumidifiers may be a simple answer to controlling the moisture in the slabs above ground.
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Jim Ryan
Posts: 958
Since: 1/12/2008
| 3/13/2008 8:54:05 PM
Remember, if your concrete dries-out, that means the glue holding your floors to the concrete will dry-out and your wood floors will likely start squeeking first, your carpet tiles will likely start to curl next, your regular carpet will likely start to wrinkle and then the ceramic tiles grout may be next.
Please, don't take my word for ANY OF THIS, test for yourselves.
I came to these conclusions by taking-up thousands of floors through the years.
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Ray Darrah
Posts: 1411
Since: 2/18/2008
| 3/13/2008 9:04:04 PM
Water is one thing, alkali is yet another.
The alkali degrades the adhesive and the alkalie moves to the slab surface with the water/vapor.
While vapor will move through the flooring products, wood, carpet, vinyl, the alkali accumulates on the surface and degrades the adhesives.
The floors I've seen that were easy to tear out found white alkali on the surface and sometimes a powder that would transfer to your hand.
The retail store had a warehouse with Asphalt tile, 9"x9" with alkali bubbling up through the joints. The tile even degraded on the edges, but that old cut-back held...
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Jim Ryan
Posts: 958
Since: 1/12/2008
| 3/13/2008 9:10:06 PM
Could it be that the moisture was too high and for too long? I've seen the same thing on occasion, but the slab also looked wet.
Keep the moisture content down to 2 to 3 percent from the start and I doubt any problems like that will arise.
Of course, only time will tell for sure. The industries have gone too lax one way and it seems it is at a crossroads to possibly going the other way.
I only gave them another way to look at things, from my experience. 37 years lends a little credibility, I would think.
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Darian Brown
Posts: 712
Since: 2/5/2008
| 3/13/2008 10:12:37 PM
Great read very well thought out.
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Jim Ryan
Posts: 958
Since: 1/12/2008
| 3/13/2008 10:59:32 PM
quote:
Great read very well thought out.
Thanks Darian,--but it's the old blind squirrel.
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