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| | | Author | Message | John Draper 
Posts: 76
Since: 10/29/2007
|  7/6/2008 10:46:29 AM 
Most of the handymen listed in the phone book charge 75 dollars per handyman. Yes, that $150 per hour for a two man crew!!! And most if any have had formal training in anything.
I was thinking of being an handyman. I get 5 for carpet 2 for laminate 3 for wood and floor tile but I sell my own jobs
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| Roland Thompson
Posts: 281
Since: 2/27/2008
| 7/6/2008 12:02:58 PM
Before I went into the area I am now I was subing and paid or went to every myself, Now a few times they would work it out in extra pay so I was paid back, but being a sub they can not out right pay or even make you go to training.
Ray I have been to almost all you mentioned. Pergo and Willsonart is not free if you get their certifications. David send me your e-mail and I will send you my resume and you can post it or tell me have to attach it from my documents.
FD
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| Ray Darrah
Posts: 1411
Since: 2/18/2008
| 7/6/2008 12:12:22 PM
Roland,
Your posts are VERY informative and helpful.
I appreciate your participation.
I had to think a bit about Retailers sponsoring Installers.
At NWFA/NOFMA: about 90 people. Most sent by the retailers.
CTEF: about 16 people. Two of us inspectors, two sales people for a ceramic tile manufacturer and the balance were installers sponsored by their employers (retailers).
Mohawk Commercial: about 20 in attendance. 5 or 6 were Installers sponsored by their employers.
There were ladies at every one of these training opportunities.
The best installer at the CTEF training was the girl from Alaska. She was a perfectionist and not at all slow. She was organized and could put the tile in....
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| lindalockwood
Posts: 181
Since: 2/25/2008
| 7/6/2008 12:50:34 PM
If you're an average installer sub contracting for a shop, they probably aren't interested in furthering your education.
Inspectors "sub" for the mills, dist, and retailers...We always pay our way, and you don't hear us whining about it. Most inspectors spent thousands before they got their first job. If they want to keep working, it costs thousands more. It's called-the cost of doing business.
A good installer working for a good shop, should be able to work some type of deal with the owner to pay or share the cost of training. If the installer doesn't ask, they'll probably never offer.
When a retailer finds a good, honest, capable installer-they're usually willing to do whatever it takes to keep that installer with them. Many installers up here have worked for the same retailer for 10-30 years, on payroll-with benefits.
If you are truly a good craftsman, and you're not being paid fairly- go visit the local competitors!
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| Stephen Perrera
Posts: 823
Since: 5/27/2008
| 7/6/2008 12:50:47 PM
Least we all agree installers income is pitifully low.
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| Ray Darrah
Posts: 1411
Since: 2/18/2008
| 7/6/2008 1:23:01 PM
I agree, that many installers work for low wages.
I gotta wonder why so many continue to do the same thing over and over and over, expecting different results?
Why are you installing Stephen?
How are you able to put kids in school, afford a home and build a swimming pool if you are UNDER paid?
Seems like you live a wonderful life for somebody not earning a living. !!
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| Stephen Perrera
Posts: 823
Since: 5/27/2008
| 7/6/2008 1:35:29 PM
Realizing my income alone would not support a family and send kids to college and in the manner of a lifestyle in which I wanted to live, I worked as my wife went to college for six years.
Being a totally independant contractor affors me the privilage of raising my prices accordingly, plus the fact I have a large amount of satisfiesd clientel that gets me alot of referrals.
You gotta know how to market yourself.
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| Rusty Baker
Posts: 111
Since: 6/7/2008
| 7/6/2008 1:48:32 PM
Most of the installers that I know have a second income. I have a woodworking shop, one of the other layers here raises hogs, almost all of us have working wives.
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| Ray Darrah
Posts: 1411
Since: 2/18/2008
| 7/6/2008 2:00:23 PM
Most of us inspectors have working spouses too.
Audrey manages QuestInspect.
Linda and I are full time inspectors moving into new Arena's.
I guess we are all in the same boat with different oars.
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| Ray Darrah
Posts: 1411
Since: 2/18/2008
| 7/6/2008 3:45:37 PM
Roland: Ray@RayDarrah.com
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| Selva Lee Tucker
Posts: 634
Since: 5/25/2008
| 7/6/2008 6:29:03 PM
quote:
Realizing my income alone would not support a
family and send kids to college and in the manner of a lifestyle
in which I wanted to live, I worked as my wife went to college for
six years.
Being a totally independant contractor affors me the privilage of
raising my prices accordingly, plus the fact I have a large
amount of satisfiesd clientel that gets me alot of referrals.
You gotta know how to market yourself.
Stephen,,,,that is so true,,,, a large % of my non mill inspections
do not come from the internet, but referrals from past happy
clients....no Ray, not trying to argue with you about internet
ads,,,just saying how I get a lot of work,,,,I still think a good rep
is worth more than a thousand ads,,,,and since the work is
referral, they have an idea of cost before they call....a good
honest name and rep is still best referral (and no, I am not
saying anyone here does not have one)
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| Rusty Baker
Posts: 111
Since: 6/7/2008
| 7/6/2008 7:00:18 PM
Same with installers. I don't work for retailers, all my work is from referrals. As Stephen's work is.
Last Edited 7/6/2008
7:01:56 PM
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| Roland Thompson
Posts: 281
Since: 2/27/2008
| 7/7/2008 12:33:20 PM
I guess I most have done something right for I was a sub for almost 25 years before I came into the retail arena. I have 5 children and put them all thru a private school and even had 4 still in school and one in a private college, untill my three oldest got out of school my wife never worked ( taking care of the children is a full time job ) now she teaches at the private school and make the big income of 20,000 a year. So I guess what I am saying is you can do it you just need to market yourself. Also getting my diffrent certification's has help me make more money.
FD
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| Hugh Scott
Posts: 194
Since: 6/1/2008
| 7/7/2008 5:48:43 PM
Well I waited for 25 years as well before I went retail.
I was forced into the retail end after seeing the lack of ethics among the current retailers with little or no install background.
The doors are closing on honest people in the flooring trade even former installers are loosing thier ethics.
Or it is just people in general... I am inclined to think it the state of our society.
They reject God ,take prayer out of schools take good old fashion spankings out the home,inject darwinist thoerys that even Darwin himself rejected proir to his death.
That is a thread of another color.
My wife and I homeschool our four daughters we do the ABEKA system that is sponsered by the Pensacola Christian Academy.
They are leaps and bounds head of other kids in thier same grade level.
My wife is college educated, I am the School of Hard Knocks educated.
This has little to do with labor cost but it has everthing to do with the decline of prosperity and ability and self will.
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| Barry Carlton
Posts: 162
Since: 6/30/2008
| 7/7/2008 5:56:52 PM
quote:
Well I waited for 25 years as well before I went retail.
I was forced into the retail end after seeing the lack of ethics among the current retailers with little or no install background.
The doors are closing on honest people in the flooring trade even former installers are loosing thier ethics.
Or it is just people in general... I am inclined to think it the state of our society.
They reject God ,take prayer out of schools take good old fashion spankings out the home,inject darwinist thoerys that even Darwin himself rejected proir to his death.
That is a thread of another color.
My wife and I homeschool our four daughters we do the ABEKA system that is sponsered by the Pensacola Christian Academy.
They are leaps and bounds head of other kids in thier same grade level.
My wife is college educated, I am the School of Hard Knocks educated.
This has little to do with labor cost but it has everthing to do with the decline of prosperity and ability and self will.
I think you are the only who has tried to address the real root of the problems we are having. And yet even this is only the tip of the iceberg.
IMHO
barry
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| Barry Carlton
Posts: 162
Since: 6/30/2008
| 7/7/2008 6:18:30 PM
quote:
If you're an average installer sub contracting for a shop, they probably aren't interested in furthering your education.
Inspectors "sub" for the mills, dist, and retailers...We always pay our way, and you don't hear us whining about it. Most inspectors spent thousands before they got their first job. If they want to keep working, it costs thousands more. It's called-the cost of doing business.
A good installer working for a good shop, should be able to work some type of deal with the owner to pay or share the cost of training. If the installer doesn't ask, they'll probably never offer.
When a retailer finds a good, honest, capable installer-they're usually willing to do whatever it takes to keep that installer with them. Many installers up here have worked for the same retailer for 10-30 years, on payroll-with benefits.
If you are truly a good craftsman, and you're not being paid fairly- go visit the local competitors!
Sorry abut my previous reply to your thoughts Linda.It seemed that your were saying that if you're not getting the help and support from the stores and shops that you must not be a very good worker/installer. I.E. not worth the investment.
But as an above average mechanic who has always had a good work ethic my experience has been that the less experience an installer has the more 'control' the store tries to exercise over him and his wages. They don't want him to educate himself much less help him. They want experience not education. All the recognized schools and certifiers also educate as to ethics and business practices (at least somewhat).
On the other hand, the stores I have worked for feel that if a mechanic is experienced and educated what more does he expect. In other words, they think he already knows enough (usually more than they do).
I have only worked in 2 areas on the country and not large areas. (central CA pop. about 700,000 now. and SW Idaho pop about 250,000).
And while most of my work has been sub contracting, I started in union shops, hourly, worked circles around others, was hungry for knowledge and education but to no avail. At least with no help from others to further my knoweledge and ed.
Granted this comes from my limited experience in relatively small markets. But it is nearly 30 years of experience.
I too have made a pretty good living with referrals and a good reputation.
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| lindalockwood
Posts: 181
Since: 2/25/2008
| 7/7/2008 6:27:41 PM
I didn't mean to imply that you guys are not good enough. What I meant was, if a shop has valuable employees or subcontractors they are more apt to work with them, and educate them..it's a win-win situation.
There is tons of free training out there, installers and inspectors just have to get there. Of course it costs money and lost time, but it makes you more valuable.
My point is, if you think you're worth it, and the boss thinks you're worth it...you may have to ASK them to sponsor you. Point out all the benefits they get from doing that.
There are a lot of good retailers/shops around the country. You all just have to find them.
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| Selva Lee Tucker
Posts: 634
Since: 5/25/2008
| 7/8/2008 12:35:49 AM
some dealers think if they send the installer to training, they will
want more money and if they don't get it, will leave,,,
others see them as subs who are responsible for their own
training,,,
others just don't care,
some do care,,,store in Sir Walter's city in NC makes all the
installers try to get CFI master level,,,,and this is true, go three
blocks to another store down the road and the owner will not let
CFI in his store, says they have an attitude he does not like,
seems a CFI installer told him once they needed to do some prep
work first, he fired him off the job for saying that to him in his
office,,,,
he does not care if they speak english or german or polish or
russian or greek or spanish or outer spittune! all he cares about
is they put it in cheap,,,,
so, Linda and Crew, you are right, but, you are wrong,
the other side, you are right, but, you are also wrong,,,
now, me and Stephen, well, we are never wrong because we are
always perfect! 
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