| Author | Message |
Stephen Perrera 
Posts: 823
Since: 5/27/2008
|  6/13/2008 8:43:41 PM 
Got a call form a consumer. Recently installed engineered glueddown hardwood raised off the slab. Retailer/installer tried to fix with injection kit, did not work.
Then I get this info, the guy hired an asbestos abatement company to come in and demo the old VAT. The owner said the slab was clean and no cutback visible when finished. I have to inspect next week.
Your initial thoughts as to the failure to bond are.....
I have a few besides the usual high VE and ph stuff. I also have a call into the abatement company. Got the name of the adhesive used.
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Hugh Scott
Posts: 194
Since: 6/1/2008
| 6/13/2008 8:59:07 PM
If it was wide spread they would not try to repair it with an injection kit unless they are idiots.
I would say it is a low spot in the concrete.
If they could not fix then they tried too soon they need to pull of and let the glue under the wood dry for two to three weeks.Then if it does not work they need to try some of the Bosticks epoxy.
If non of this relevant then they were to impatient on the fix.
I have never met a hardwood floor over concrete I could not fix.
I used to do manufacture replacments for Mannington in LA.
One time the problem was crackling noise under the wood, they had sent out 5 installers I was thier the last hope.
The layer of concrete was not finished propelry and had come up with the glue!
It was a channel that stretched from one end of the house to the other right through the middle of the living room. I removed the wood about 2 ft wide by 25 long.Patched the floor reset then used a full pack of Bosticks epoxy on the rest of house.
The heat was on but we made customer happy.
It was a lot of work....,
I think it was a low spot the water had settled when the slab was poured and thinned the concrete.
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Ray Darrah
Posts: 1411
Since: 2/18/2008
| 6/13/2008 9:18:43 PM
I know this will be sounding kinda strange:
1. They may have used chemicals to remove the glue rather than scrape and bead blast or mechanically remove the cutback residue.
2. They may have used lots of water.
So: lift and smell it...........
2. Use the u.v. light to see the variations in reflections. Deep blue may indicate oil based adhesive type removers.
3. After you lift: throw some water on the slab and see if it beads up.
You may have bond breakers or wet slab.
Or;;; like Hugh said;;; a low spot not bonding then swelling to lift off the slab.
just my thoughts... don't pay attention to me... LOL
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Hugh Scott
Posts: 194
Since: 6/1/2008
| 6/13/2008 9:32:53 PM
Most abatement compainies will be very aware of residual from their products so in thoery this should not be the case.
In thoery.....
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Ray Darrah
Posts: 1411
Since: 2/18/2008
| 6/13/2008 11:05:22 PM
there were lots of failures behind abatement companies due to residues and water.
Don't see them much anymore.. i guess because there is not the amount of abatement there once was or they got smarter.
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Stephen Perrera
Posts: 823
Since: 5/27/2008
| 6/14/2008 10:54:03 AM
Good ideas. I thought at first perhaps left over dust.
Then could also be they ground the floor too smooth so it can;t bond well and if it's a low spot like Hugh mentioned that could easlily be the problem. Glue no likey smooth concrete.
Also I'm not sure if they used a seal or not. Checking with the retailer and the abatement company to see what was used.
Thing is, to find out exactly what the problem is the floor needs to be demo'd. When you get a call from the manufacture..... like thru a broker or what not they ask you to go out and inspect without demo. You cannot tell whats going on there unless you demo!!!
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Hugh Scott
Posts: 194
Since: 6/1/2008
| 6/15/2008 12:35:56 AM
The fix is use the epoxy after the glue has cured.inject,make helper stand on area you need at least 100 lbs of isolated pressure for the 7-10 minutes it takes for the epoxy to grab
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Ray Darrah
Posts: 1411
Since: 2/18/2008
| 6/15/2008 10:34:23 AM
Stephen,
It depends on what you find once you get there.
1. Is this a pervasive problem?
2. Is this an isolated problem?
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Stephen Perrera
Posts: 823
Since: 5/27/2008
| 6/15/2008 11:31:40 AM
It's like the third time its been injected. This time it's not working.
Installed in 2006. Thats not recently is it?  ))
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Ray Darrah
Posts: 1411
Since: 2/18/2008
| 6/15/2008 9:40:55 PM
So this is an isolated problem?
One spot?
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Hugh Scott
Posts: 194
Since: 6/1/2008
| 6/16/2008 8:30:00 AM
Well I would have to say the glue is cured enough to inject!!
The thing about the proper epoxy is:
If it is the good stuff it will fill the void and pull the floor as far down as it will go.
predrill with 1/8 bit at 3 corner meet or every 6 inches down the joint or I will even hit the middle of a heavy wood grain in the board center if the epoxy cannot get to the spot.
Inject.... apply pressure until you see epoxy attempting to the resurface at hole point
Do not get pressure off the area so soon!
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Stephen Perrera
Posts: 823
Since: 5/27/2008
| 6/16/2008 4:36:28 PM
Several spots, two different attempts at using the manufactures specified epoxy. Epoxy one spot another pops up next to it. lol
I found out the abatement company used a soy based solvent and then a detergent after wards. The consumer said it looked like new concrete, no black adhesive residue.
I took a gander at it today. I invited the retailers person who handles claims, she came out witgh another young lady. And I invited the company that does their installations. I had asked that they send out an installer to pull some planks and trim pieces for me but they declined. Too bad, so sad.
Last Edited 6/16/2008
4:41:54 PM
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Ray Darrah
Posts: 1411
Since: 2/18/2008
| 6/16/2008 5:40:30 PM
Soap and solvent.
no rinse them off I bet !! Still there degrading glue and/or acting as bond breaker.
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John Draper
Posts: 76
Since: 10/29/2007
| 6/16/2008 6:34:21 PM
The last job that I took up with cutback we skimmed the floor with patch before gluing the wood down and the wood is still there.
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Stephen Perrera
Posts: 823
Since: 5/27/2008
| 6/16/2008 6:40:34 PM
Jes, my thoughts the first time I heard the name "abatement"...what did they do and what did they add to the mix. How do you rinse that stuff off effectively?
I kinda hinted around about that as I asked questions like....did they rinse it? How many times? Did they do a bond test prior. Did they do a moisture test of any kind? Did they perform a sealer/water test prior to installation like drops of water on concrete....simple test....cheap....effective.....brush the water to see if you get any bubbles.....bubbles no good....no magic bubbles!!! No soy...no soy!
What the hell is soy solvent? Is it edible? Does it go with sushi?
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Ray Darrah
Posts: 1411
Since: 2/18/2008
| 6/16/2008 7:16:56 PM
You asked good questions...
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Stephen Perrera
Posts: 823
Since: 5/27/2008
| 6/16/2008 10:13:32 PM
"The last job that I took up with cutback we skimmed the floor with patch before gluing the wood down and the wood is still there."
That might have helped John.
Had not the installer caulked some jambs, had low spots all over with no floor prep this conclusion may taken a different direction. But I certainly cannot call it against the manufacture. Too many variables.
The consumer was bent about the installer bringing his 10 year old daughter to the job, not having any weights to weight down the flooring (installer used boxes of wood and consumers cement blocks) ect ect. I had to tell him that had no bearing on wether or not he performed the installation correctly. The stuff we have to listen to. :-/
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))