| Author | Message |
Jim Ryan 
Posts: 958
Since: 1/12/2008
|  3/28/2008 8:28:24 AM 
In todays carpets, in order to stretch any carpet with sbr and fillers, one must break at least the bond, in the areas with the most fillers in them, as well as the most sbr.
The stretch is forever a guessing game--at least in the US. It may be different in foreign countries.
Still, even if foreign countries are using SBR--what some call a false laytex--the bond must still be broken, at least in part, to make the carpet stretch.
Please don't believe me, but rather take a T shirt in your hands and pull it in opposing directions, seeing and feeling what that textile does. Yea, I know, carpet has never been able to do that by hand, BUT, when jute and real laytex were used, the kicker or powerstretcher could make the carpet work just as easily as the shirt--by hand.
Todays SBR --or false laytex, dries hard or stiff, where true laytex can be stretched quite a ways before the laytex snaps.
Please, don't believe me. Just buy some real laytex and pour some in your hand. rub it around in your hands into a ball and pull on it. See how it stretches. Then pour SBR in your hands and rub it around, letting it dry and try to stretch it. 
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Ray Darrah
Posts: 1411
Since: 2/18/2008
| 3/28/2008 2:38:52 PM
If carpet were made from real latex, it would not be affordable.
SBR does a great job.
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Jim Ryan
Posts: 958
Since: 1/12/2008
| 3/28/2008 6:42:25 PM
quote:
If carpet were made from real latex, it would not be affordable.
SBR does a great job.
Did ya put some SBR in your hand and let it dry and then try to stretch it Ray?
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Ray Darrah
Posts: 1411
Since: 2/18/2008
| 3/28/2008 7:07:16 PM
No.
I did not.
what is your point?
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Jim Ryan
Posts: 958
Since: 1/12/2008
| 3/28/2008 7:11:00 PM
quote:
No.
I did not.
what is your point?
If you can't figure out the point, then there is no use telling you. I thought you were a very smart man. Have you ever played dumb for the sake of a job?
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David Kern
Posts: 518
Since: 2/20/2008
| 3/28/2008 7:18:49 PM
quote:
If you can't figure out the point, then there is no use telling you. I thought you were a very smart man. Have you ever played dumb for the sake of a job?
Jim,
Please refrain from disparaging remarks such as these directed at Ray.
I found a blurb about SBR and have included it in this post:
"High-Performance Backings The most widely used commercial carpet backing uses styrene butadiene latex (SBR) as a backcoating and as a laminating compound that attaches a fabric to the backing. SBR-based backings are used in direct-glue, double-glue-over-separatepad, and stretch-in applications. This suitability to nearly any application, as well as its low cost, has resulted in SBR backing being used in the construction of nearly 90 percent of all carpets. SBR backings can be stretched during installation, allowing patterns to be aligned at the seams.
In spite of their popularity, there are some disadvantages to the use of SBR backings. SBR backings have only fair to good dimensional stability properties, contributing to seam separation and edge raveling problems. What's more, SBR backings do not serve as a moisture barrier." Article by James Piper
This seems to support your issues.
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Jim Ryan
Posts: 958
Since: 1/12/2008
| 3/28/2008 7:36:51 PM
quote:
Jim,
Please refrain from disparaging remarks such as these directed at Ray.
I found a blurb about SBR and have included it in this post:
"High-Performance Backings The most widely used commercial carpet backing uses styrene butadiene latex (SBR) as a backcoating and as a laminating compound that attaches a fabric to the backing. SBR-based backings are used in direct-glue, double-glue-over-separatepad, and stretch-in applications. This suitability to nearly any application, as well as its low cost, has resulted in SBR backing being used in the construction of nearly 90 percent of all carpets. SBR backings can be stretched during installation, allowing patterns to be aligned at the seams.
In spite of their popularity, there are some disadvantages to the use of SBR backings. SBR backings have only fair to good dimensional stability properties, contributing to seam separation and edge raveling problems. What's more, SBR backings do not serve as a moisture barrier." Article by James Piper
This seems to support your issues.
I was just funnin with Ray-- David, unless you believe he can't read and comprehend my first post. If that's the case, I apologize Ray.
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Roger Gerber
Posts: 327
Since: 3/17/2008
| 3/28/2008 7:41:25 PM
quote:
Jim,
Please refrain from disparaging remarks such as these directed at Ray.
I found a blurb about SBR and have included it in this post:
"High-Performance Backings The most widely used commercial carpet backing uses styrene butadiene latex (SBR) as a backcoating and as a laminating compound that attaches a fabric to the backing. SBR-based backings are used in direct-glue, double-glue-over-separatepad, and stretch-in applications. This suitability to nearly any application, as well as its low cost, has resulted in SBR backing being used in the construction of nearly 90 percent of all carpets. SBR backings can be stretched during installation, allowing patterns to be aligned at the seams.
In spite of their popularity, there are some disadvantages to the use of SBR backings. SBR backings have only fair to good dimensional stability properties, contributing to seam separation and edge raveling problems. What's more, SBR backings do not serve as a moisture barrier." Article by James Piper
This seems to support your issues.
This issue of SBR vs. latex has a great deal of merit. When Jim and I started in this business in the late 60's everything was jute and a better latex (wasn't 'real' but wasn't SBR either.)
Alas, times change and so must we. In those days no one sealed seams, no need to, the backings had some integrity. Power stretching was normally done in large areas, because a jute backing was not going anywhere. But like Davids quote times change.
We have choices--
(1) Change and adapt and carry on like a man! (2) Change careers and carry on. I did not like what I saw and went to hard surfaces exclusively in 1990.
(3) Cry and moan and say "Oh pitiful me, why are the big mills treating me this way?" The choice is ours and ours alone.
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David Kern
Posts: 518
Since: 2/20/2008
| 3/28/2008 7:46:46 PM
Good answer, Roger. I agree completely.
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Darian Brown
Posts: 712
Since: 2/5/2008
| 3/28/2008 7:49:45 PM
What does Masland carpet have in it Reel latex. So have your custmers pay for it or they get what they get and they can be happy they have something on the floor.
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Jim Ryan
Posts: 958
Since: 1/12/2008
| 3/28/2008 7:55:58 PM
quote:
This issue of SBR vs. latex has a great deal of merit. When Jim and I started in this business in the late 60's everything was jute and a better latex (wasn't 'real' but wasn't SBR either.)
Alas, times change and so must we. In those days no one sealed seams, no need to, the backings had some integrity. Power stretching was normally done in large areas, because a jute backing was not going anywhere. But like Davids quote times change.
We have choices--
(1) Change and adapt and carry on like a man! (2) Change careers and carry on. I did not like what I saw and went to hard surfaces exclusively in 1990.
(3) Cry and moan and say "Oh pitiful me, why are the big mills treating me this way?" The choice is ours and ours alone.
You said you haven't laid carpet in over 20 years and that you don't want too, so hey, good for you, but don't come slummin and and tellin us we're cryin, when we discuss what we see as wrong.
Now you're calling us cry babies and David Kern says how great your post is. Uh huh. Show us where we are cryin.
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David Kern
Posts: 518
Since: 2/20/2008
| 3/28/2008 7:58:56 PM
quote:
You said you haven't laid carpet in over 20 years and that you don't want too, so hey, good for you, but don't come slummin and and tellin us we're cryin, when we discuss what we see as wrong.
Now you're calling us cry babies and David Kern says how great your post is. Uh huh. Show us where we are cryin.
Jim,
He merely gave 3 categories people would fit in regarding the SBR issue. Actually, if you read his post you'll see he agreed with you that an issue exists.
This is one of those 'if the shoe fits' situations. No one said you're a cry baby.
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Jim Ryan
Posts: 958
Since: 1/12/2008
| 3/28/2008 8:09:40 PM
quote:
Jim,
He merely gave 3 categories people would fit in regarding the SBR issue. Actually, if you read his post you'll see he agreed with you that an issue exists.
This is one of those 'if the shoe fits' situations. No one said you're a cry baby.
Gosh, silly me, there's no such thing as innuendo, there's no such thing as innuendo, there's no such thing as innuendo. Oops, I forgot to click my heels.
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David Kern
Posts: 518
Since: 2/20/2008
| 3/28/2008 8:15:07 PM
quote:
Gosh, silly me, there's no such thing as innuendo, there's no such thing as innuendo, there's no such thing as innuendo. Oops, I forgot to click my heels.
Actually, you could be in the first category (if it weren't for your reaction). By the way, Roger admitted he was in category #2.
Last Edited 3/28/2008
8:17:14 PM
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Roger Gerber
Posts: 327
Since: 3/17/2008
| 3/28/2008 8:20:07 PM
quote:
Actually, you could be in the first category (if it weren't for your reaction). By the way, Roger admitted he was in category #2.
And was in catagory three for a little while!
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Jim Ryan
Posts: 958
Since: 1/12/2008
| 3/28/2008 8:27:45 PM
quote:
Actually, you could be in the first category (if it weren't for your reaction). By the way, Roger admitted he was in category #2.
Oh, please forgive me, I am not worthy.
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Ray Darrah
Posts: 1411
Since: 2/18/2008
| 3/29/2008 9:58:27 AM
Simply said, for those of us in the inspection industry; we love SBR latex and the removal of certain chemicals that may be damaging the environment.
The Flooring Industry has had to make dramatic changes in all product formulations;; from carpet to vinyl to adhesive to patching compounds.... And do so without going out of business.
These changes were driven by Law, Safety to people or the environement.
This industry has been remarkable in making these changes while producing a good product to great products.
And they did it in such a short period of time.. Overall;; the flooring industry is impressive and should be respected for the ability to respond to the changing times.
Ray Darrah.
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