| Author | Message |
floorbizforum 
Posts: 99
Since: 2/20/2008
|  2/26/2008 8:18:30 PM 
I talked to Jane at CFI today and our conversation gravitated to the need for there to be more focus on Business Training for installers.
With all attention being given to the technical aspect of our industry, why hasn't there been more attention given in this area?
She made a great point that there are many excellent installers out there that quite frankly... fail miserably as business people.
At any rate, I thought it quite interesting coming from CFI (specialists in technical training) and wanted to know what the board thought.
As a side-note, I have dealt with my share of really great installers that managed the business side very poorly and some got into tax-related problems that virtually sank them.
Let's discuss...
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Ray Darrah
Posts: 1411
Since: 2/18/2008
| 2/26/2008 8:42:22 PM
- Incorporate.
- Pay business debt out of corporate account.
- take a draw and pay taxes out of the draw.
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Jim Ryan
Posts: 958
Since: 1/12/2008
| 2/26/2008 8:43:39 PM
quote:
I talked to Jane at CFI today and our conversation gravitated to the need for there to be more focus on Business Training for installers.
With all attention being given to the technical aspect of our industry, why hasn't there been more attention given in this area?
She made a great point that there are many excellent installers out there that quite frankly... fail miserably as business people.
At any rate, I thought it quite interesting coming from CFI (specialists in technical training) and wanted to know what the board thought.
As a side-note, I have dealt with my share of really great installers that managed the business side very poorly and some got into tax-related problems that virtually sank them.
Let's discuss...
If you run as you are taught from sun-up to sundown, because you are needed as one of the best, by about 8 or 9 oclock each nite, you are dead tired and in bed, after wolfing something down.
The rest of the installers won't run and won't be one of the best, because it costs the installers that are the best, more money and more heartaches than the butchers.
The best installers might get most Sundays off, unless the boss needs the best on a certain job and only Sunday will do, because the rest of the week and for 2 weeks ahead, the best crew or maybe best 2 crews at one shop, are scheduled 2 weeks in advance all the time, at least that's how it was for my first 21 years in this trade.
So if they can be taught in their sleep, maybe that's the way to go, IF, they can sleep good, listening to such.
I always wanted total silence and darkness, so I could mostly recover for the next day. Most times my hands swelled some each nite.
Sorry for the negativity, but I thought you should know.
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Ray Darrah
Posts: 1411
Since: 2/18/2008
| 2/26/2008 8:49:26 PM
I remember installing.... I think i was too cheap and had to work more, and harder, to make a living....
but nobody would pay me any more that what i was getting...
Until i contracted on my own and was able to buy carpet.. Then I went to get property management accounts.... They were good to me.
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floorbizforum
Posts: 99
Since: 2/20/2008
| 2/26/2008 8:54:04 PM
Perhaps some 'essential' business training can be included in the certification courses being conducted. They are already there as a captive audience and it wouldn't require that much extra time to teach someone to ...
1. Make timely tax deposits (941 and UCT taxes) and how to do this.
2. File quarterly returns
3. Avoid at all costs entering into a 'penalty phase' with the IRS, etc., etc, etc.
Things such as these.
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floorbizforum
Posts: 99
Since: 2/20/2008
| 2/26/2008 9:02:02 PM
quote:
Perhaps some 'essential' business training can be included in the certification courses being conducted. They are already there as a captive audience and it wouldn't require that much extra time to teach someone to ...
1. Make timely tax deposits (941 and UCT taxes) and how to do this.
2. File quarterly returns
3. Avoid at all costs entering into a 'penalty phase' with the IRS, etc., etc, etc.
Things such as these.
4. And the true value (as you mentioned Ray) in investing in a great CPA.
Edited by Admin 2/26/2008
9:02:51 PM
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Ray Darrah
Posts: 1411
Since: 2/18/2008
| 2/26/2008 9:10:02 PM
I always thought CPA was an overpriced bookkeeper.
Not my opinion now.
For some strange reason, that I cannot put my finger on,,,, Once we got our business organized and followed the advice of the cpa to keep us clean with the irs............. we actually made more money on a net-profit basis...
To this day, I cannot put my finger on the real difference, but I think it was the draw and making our personal budget around that draw....
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floorbizforum
Posts: 99
Since: 2/20/2008
| 2/26/2008 9:15:34 PM
Perhaps not working in a constant state of fear and apprehension helps. Knowing your back is covered (a good CPA has your back) you can focus on what you do best, make money $$
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Jim Ryan
Posts: 958
Since: 1/12/2008
| 2/26/2008 9:33:10 PM
quote:
Perhaps not working in a constant state of fear and apprehension helps. Knowing your back is covered (a good CPA has your back) you can focus on what you do best, make money $$
Sorry, but I must say, today, if you are an installer for new construction, your supply bill alone is at least 25 to 30%, as it was some 37 years ago. If you need a great helper, it will cost you a third of your pay, so that's about 2/3rds of your pay already, so you are making what your helper makes. Is that enough for you to live on, have a wife and children?
If you hire a 7 dollar an hour helper and pay all that is necessary by law, how hard is he gonna work?
Talk is one thing gentlemen, but the reality is quite different and most installers never filed in my time, because they didn't make near enough and they were just too tired to give even more of the little, left to them.
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David Kern
Posts: 518
Since: 2/20/2008
| 2/26/2008 9:42:16 PM
Unfortunately Jim, the IRS could care less about all of that (even though it's true).
It may not happen today, tomorrow or years from now, but eventually- the IRS will be camping out in someones house, making life an absolute nightmare for someone not paying timely taxes.
But hey, I know it goes on every day in spite of this and will continue to.
The old saying to keep your friends close, but your enemies closer applies to everyone BUT the IRS.
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Ray Darrah
Posts: 1411
Since: 2/18/2008
| 2/26/2008 9:43:03 PM
you are right Mr. Ryan.... hard to be able to afford taxes/ss/unemployment/and all that stuff on 7.00 per hour.
Time to burn Washington D.C? Why don't we succeed from Washingtong D.C. and declare our indepenence?
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David Kern
Posts: 518
Since: 2/20/2008
| 2/26/2008 9:46:52 PM
quote:
you are right Mr. Ryan.... hard to be able to afford taxes/ss/unemployment/and all that stuff on 7.00 per hour.
Time to burn Washington D.C? Why don't we succeed from Washingtong D.C. and declare our indepenence?
You guys succeed if you want, but I'm going to secede... Just kidding Ray.
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Jim Ryan
Posts: 958
Since: 1/12/2008
| 2/26/2008 9:48:24 PM
quote:
you are right Mr. Ryan.... hard to be able to afford taxes/ss/unemployment/and all that stuff on 7.00 per hour.
Time to burn Washington D.C? Why don't we succeed from Washingtong D.C. and declare our indepenence?
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Ya see Ray, it's all about the leaders. The IRS will never come for me, even though I have taunted many installers through the years to turn me in, because I wanted our day in court, but they will never take me personally to court, because of the things I can explain, like OSHA, roofers, mill workers and much more.
If you and everyone on this board would turn me into the IRS, HOPEFULLY, they would give me--us--our day in court.
I have said this for years and the IRS will not take me to court. I don't like doing this, but I hate seeing what has come from such.
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Ray Darrah
Posts: 1411
Since: 2/18/2008
| 2/26/2008 9:57:34 PM
Wesley snipes won his case...
I'd like to read more about it, but the publicity stopped immediatly...
They were after him for millions.. All he got was found guilty for not filing.......... but innocent on all other charges...
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floorbizforum
Posts: 99
Since: 2/20/2008
| 2/26/2008 10:03:03 PM
quote:
Wesley snipes won his case...
I'd like to read more about it, but the publicity stopped immediatly...
They were after him for millions.. All he got was found guilty for not filing.......... but innocent on all other charges...
x
He wasn't the little guy, Ray. Little guys can't afford to litigate like the deep-pockets of the rich and famous.
This is probably getting off-topic...
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floorbizforum
Posts: 99
Since: 2/20/2008
| 2/26/2008 10:04:57 PM
As someone earlier said...
- Incorporate.
- Pay business debt out of corporate account.
- take a draw and pay taxes out of the draw.
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Ray Darrah
Posts: 1411
Since: 2/18/2008
| 2/26/2008 10:10:32 PM
it is easier to conform...
But Jim works out of his house and no longer works for retailers....
he'll be fine.... as long as he is working direct.
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Jim Ryan
Posts: 958
Since: 1/12/2008
| 2/26/2008 11:33:20 PM
When ya'll work as hard and as long as we do and have, lert us know how it works for ya, as soon as you have a moment to yourself.
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