12/16/2008
7:25:36 PM 

Every day thousands of installers load defective flooring and install it. Some of it they can repair or cull or install so it is not noticeable. Some goes into rentals or places where no one cares, Some goes into residences where the homeowner just doesn't notice it. When there is a complaint, most of the time the installer is blamed for installing defective material. He may have had 10 jobs of the same stuff with only one complaint. If installers never installed anything with defects they would not work much. As primarily a carpet installer anymore, i know that almost all carpet has at least some minor defect. I am sure installers of other flooring products would say the same thing. The mills know these defects exist, the retailers know they exist. So why is the installer blamed when they show up? Because he is the low man on the totem pole.
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12/16/2008
9:26:41 PM 

you got it Barry,
they know who is the low man and
that is why, you should ask yourself,
training is not pushed very hard by
manufacturers, instead, when
installers don't show up for training
they they knew nothing about! they
say, see, they don't care to come.

12/19/2008
10:15:45 AM 

are you proposing a change in the training of inspectors?

Are you thinking that maybe, Installation Leaders from all fields should get together to promote fair and equal training for inspectors?

You know, if that was ever to take place, the cleaners would come out screaming, since they blame installers for everything including their own messes, they will
demand a place on the "council" and then, start their own counter-installation insurgency to discredit it with the entire flooring industry.

I don't think installers ever realize the power they have! If installers ever truly joined together, and worked together, a lot of bad things would stop happening to
them. However, the intent by manufacturers, distributors and retailers is to prevent that! I always hear "education is the Key" but the education needed is not the
"skill education" but the "realization education" that installers must learn to join together, create political power inside the flooring community and OUTSIDE the
flooring community! Yes, also, OUTSIDE the flooring community to represent them with government agencies and politicians. If a politician votes against some
legislation that would help installers, either refuse to install in his house or do butcher job! YES, you have the power!

But, as long as installers are fragmented by delusions of "self- employment, independent installer" and do not realize one person is indeed powerful, but, ten people are
ten times that power, a thousand people a thousand times that power, and ten thousand people ten thousand that POWER! we will wallow in poverty and always be the low
denominator in the system.

Power, installers need POWER!
The cleaners joined together and they have lobbyist in state and federal government to protect their interest, is there even one voice for installers? Over and over,
many "installation leaders" only protect their small kingdoms without regard to their "self-proclaimed subjects".


There are three layers in the flooring "suppression system" to divide and conquer installers and a fourth to be added!
If installation rates rise, will it cut retailers profits? YES!
If installation rates rise, will it cut distributors profits? YES!!
If installation rates rise, will it cut manufacturers profits? YES!
So, who self-interest is it to keep installers uneducated, divided and fragmented?

The first education for installers is not skill education, but, "realization education".
Oh yes, someone will say this is a "UNION" and everyone will run from it, they have made that word a "dirty word" but why not call it something else? It does not have to be that model or type!

The current so called installation leaders are self-proclaimed. I submit that all self-proclaimed installation leaders may only be another layer in the "suppression
industry" and that the current inspector training by manufacturers, either through industry supported schools or by manufacturing controlled training through thinly
disguised manufactured supported associations for inspectors, is to protect, support and promote the "suppression system of installers". This is the Fourth Layer of Suppression!

I once promoted that installers should join together to fight back because only in large numbers joined together can they achieve power to push back, and I saw
Manufacturing/Industry Inspectors steal the idea to promote themselves, a school and keep at bay any attempts to promote, defend and raise up the installers.

Until an active leader steps forward, 95% of inspectors will continue to be a Tool of Suppression of the Installers.
Installers deserve a share of the profits. However, the Four Layers will attack, by demeaning and then, personal attacks, saying installers are dumb, uneducated (eight grade educations and so on)
and before that can happen, must first have "skill education",,,,however, I say to you guys, with pride and fair treatment, Skill Education can happen only after respect given and fair
treatment by the industry!

Stand up, or, lay down to be abused, raped and discarded when used up.

12/19/2008
1:37:15 PM 

As a matter of fact Stephan, that is EXACTLY what we were told. If it is out of tolerance, call, if you can fix it you will be compensated. Now the next argument is how much? What is fair?

If it is out of tolerance call Tech Services, and talk to the man. However like any warranty service ya gotta call first. Don't just go and fix it then call and say" OK I fixed your crap send me a check", it won't fly that way.

12/19/2008
3:55:35 PM 

Just some advice, call Tech Services when you have no problems, ask to have information on some of the different systems faxed to you. Then call again several weeks later for advice on whether to install Cpt tile monlithic or ashlar fashion.

I have called a few times over the years and joked with the gal who answers and you know what, she remembers me. I don't know if that would benefit me any but you do get better service when you know someone.
These Tech people are very jealous of their jobs, so they don't change often. Father and son work with two brothers in one Tech dept. and two other brothers work in the Tech dept of another manufacturer.

12/19/2008
9:46:38 PM 

so installers, I see, once again, you are
sidetracked from moving forward....

12/20/2008
12:24:08 AM 

I nominate Selva as our new leader

b

12/20/2008
7:40:09 AM 

Maybe you can disclose all your donations and take the VP position Selva ?

12/20/2008
5:13:34 PM 

You can always try building a freakin bridge if you think it might help. Thats the dumbest thing I ever heard.

When it comes to labor issues the man wants it in cheap, retailers want cheap labor and the man dictates labor on replacements....cheap. I just refused to do the replacements if they dictate and have the man find them an installer.

I saved DuPonty's a-$$ once, and they never called me back again. The consumer was a ba$-tard of a lawyer and was sticking it to them cus his pets liked to whiz all over the carpet. The lawyer busted their baIIs. No one would touch the job with a ten foot pole but me. I ain't scared of no lawyers. I know how to stick it back. So I did the job, charged my price and DuPont never called back for any other replacements.

Thats gratitude for ya.

12/21/2008
11:43:09 AM 

I think we are in agreement.

I would like to add that these problems are mostly carpet oriented. It's a shame that it happens that way, they kinda cut their own throat when lowering quality control.

This may happen to wood flooring as well soon being some movers and shakers of the wood industry would like to lower standards for wood manufacturing and lay more and more responsiblilty on the lowly installer, people will not want to buy cheap wood.

The word is already out about Chinese manufactured wood so why would you want to be like them?????