| Author | Message |
Jim Ryan 
Posts: 958
Since: 1/12/2008
|  3/8/2008 6:57:50 PM 
This thread is just for clarification. So, if installers follow these booklets, will they protect the installers in court and if so, how?
If not, will what CFI teaches, protect installers in a court of law,--if the installer stretches to what they claim exactly, but the carpet wrinkles?
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David Kern
Posts: 518
Since: 2/20/2008
| 3/8/2008 7:11:24 PM
CRI and CFI are recognized as the Governing bodies of the carpet industry. As such, what they teach is what is acceptable industry practice.
The standards established by these organizations are used in determining a legal precedence for litigated cases involving claims issues.
That is why Certified Inspectors are so valuable to our industry. When they examine a claims issue, they are aware of these (minimum) standards when making reccommendations for resolution.
It is their testimony that will make or break a case. It is their report that the Judge will consider when rendering judgement.
The Ray's of the world are providing an invaluable service to our industry and we should all thank them....
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Ray Darrah
Posts: 1411
Since: 2/18/2008
| 3/8/2008 7:13:02 PM
quote:
This thread is just for clarification. So, if installers follow these booklets, will they protect the installers in court and if so, how?
If not, will what CFI teaches, protect installers in a court of law,--if the installer stretches to what they claim exactly, but the carpet wrinkles?
Lots of questions in one Thread.
1. CRI-104/105: These are MINIMUM standards.. the very minimum.
2. CFI: these are more detailed. If you can prove you followed these instructions you will not go to court.
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David Kern
Posts: 518
Since: 2/20/2008
| 3/8/2008 7:14:30 PM
quote:
Lots of questions in one Thread.
1. CRI-104/105: These are MINIMUM standards.. the very minimum.
2. CFI: these are more detailed. If you can prove you followed these instructions you will not go to court.
Notice I prefaced my remarks with 'minimum'.
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Jim Ryan
Posts: 958
Since: 1/12/2008
| 3/8/2008 7:58:25 PM
quote:
CRI and CFI are recognized as the Governing bodies of the carpet industry. As such, what they teach is what is acceptable industry practice.
The standards established by these organizations are used in determining a legal precedence for litigated cases involving claims issues.
That is why Certified Inspectors are so valuable to our industry. When they examine a claims issue, they are aware of these (minimum) standards when making reccommendations for resolution.
It is their testimony that will make or break a case. It is their report that the Judge will consider when rendering judgement.
The Ray's of the world are providing an invaluable service to our industry and we should all thank them....
Your opinion is noted, but for me, as CRI chooses to defy logic, I see nothing worth anything, in what they have to say.
As the mills and CFI are connected at the hip and they will not make right what CRI does as a mill body, I see nothing they do as worth an7ything good,--but of course, mine is but opinion and we all know what opinion is worth, even theirs.
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David Kern
Posts: 518
Since: 2/20/2008
| 3/8/2008 8:15:09 PM
The real nice thing about having minimum standards is that there is room for the creative expression in all of us to be exercised.
Meaning the Jim Ryans of the world can 'personalize' methods of installation, create new techniques and blaze new trails... as long as the 'minimum standards' are at least met.
Absolutely nothing is taken away from anybody when industry is regulated. Minimums are established, and from there, the sky is the limit.
The only criticism will come from those not able or not willing to meet these minimum standards to start with.
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Jim Ryan
Posts: 958
Since: 1/12/2008
| 3/8/2008 8:28:20 PM
quote:
The real nice thing about having minimum standards is that there is room for the creative expression in all of us to be exercised.
Meaning the Jim Ryans of the world can 'personalize' methods of installation, create new techniques and blaze new trails... as long as the 'minimum standards' are at least met.
Absolutely nothing is taken away from anybody when industry is regulated. Minimums are established, and from there, the sky is the limit.
The only criticism will come from those not able or not willing to meet these minimum standards to start with.
Doth thou mean that the Jim Ryans of the world are somehow different by such talk? Does not the fire of truth carry meaning?
Have those that set precedence stand behind their words? I see not.
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Jim Ryan
Posts: 958
Since: 1/12/2008
| 3/8/2008 8:38:41 PM
How I wish the fires of justice, stood for all this nation and its people craved. Serving just the few leads to the destruction of the many, but then I have but opinion and as they say, everyone has opinion. Like a kiss, how good is the opinion.
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David Kern
Posts: 518
Since: 2/20/2008
| 3/8/2008 8:39:12 PM
quote:
Doth thou mean that the Jim Ryans of the world are somehow different by such talk? Does not the fire of truth carry meaning?
Have those that set precedence stand behind their words? I see not.
My post implies that instaed of 'boxing' you or anyone else in, these minimum regulations and standards established by CRI, CFI and others are merely a starting point at which all those professionals with creative ambitions can express themselves freely and appreciatively.
Perhaps when you experience the atmosphere at a CFI certification course, you will be better able to see this for yourself. I'd suggest you wait for this to occur before you further criticize their methods.
Your opinion will change and with this I am certain.
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Ray Darrah
Posts: 1411
Since: 2/18/2008
| 3/8/2008 8:56:03 PM
The industry minimum standards are great outlines of needed installation requirements including placement of tack-strip, acclimation of the products and reference to Manufacturer Propriatary Installation Specifications.
With so many different backings and products such as Carpet Tile, Tufted Broadloom, woven and needlepunch;;;;;;;; there can be no Industry Standard for all the various materials sold.
Todays materials are far different from the materials of the 60's, 70's 80's and even the 1990's. The old ways don't work anymore with the advancements into "GREEN" products and construction of todays carpets.
Yesterday is gone and now we must research todays products and maintain an up-to-date knowledge, which is not so easy. Products and installation requirements seem to change daily and more emphasis needs to be placed on todays products, not the history of the Industry and past installation specifications.
Tomorrow will find advancements forced by either Governemnt Environmental Laws or Market Driven Performance demands.
One thing for sure: tomorrow will be different from today.
x
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Jim Ryan
Posts: 958
Since: 1/12/2008
| 3/8/2008 9:01:03 PM
quote:
My post implies that instaed of 'boxing' you or anyone else in, these minimum regulations and standards established by CRI, CFI and others are merely a starting point at which all those professionals with creative ambitions can express themselves freely and appreciatively.
Perhaps when you experience the atmosphere at a CFI certification course, you will be better able to see this for yourself. I'd suggest you wait for this to occur before you further criticize their methods.
Your opinion will change and with this I am certain.
As a nations leader recieved 17 million from pharmaceutical co's and then the president and congress allow the pharma co's to write their own laws, does it seem business cares for justice?
I know this will seem far removed from our little corner of the world, but I assure you, everything and everyone, depend on everything and everyone else.
Just another humble Jim Ryan of the world, with respect. I can but see what I am allowed.
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Darian Brown
Posts: 712
Since: 2/5/2008
| 3/8/2008 9:03:36 PM
In the real world there's no truth just money and rookeys
Last Edited 4/13/2008
12:33:19 AM
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Ray Darrah
Posts: 1411
Since: 2/18/2008
| 3/8/2008 9:08:32 PM
Retailers are in a difficult spot right now. It is the time for them to survive.
All installers should open their own Retailer Store to experience the costs involved in opening that door everyday before they criticize and dislike Retailers.
x
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Jim Ryan
Posts: 958
Since: 1/12/2008
| 3/8/2008 9:23:35 PM
quote:
Retailers are in a difficult spot right now. It is the time for them to survive.
All installers should open their own Retailer Store to experience the costs involved in opening that door everyday before they criticize and dislike Retailers.
x
So Ray, are you saying installers in these very hard times should open retail stores? Somehow Ray, I don't think that's good advice.
Many installers see that some retailers might not have done things according to the spirit of justice and American values.
Perhaps you think we should feel sorry for them, now that their past is catching up with them? Many of them have ruled over installers with an iron hand and an empty heart Ray. Installers aren't like that Ray, we know first hand what justice means to our children, our wives and ourselves. We have lived without it, in many cases.
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Ray Darrah
Posts: 1411
Since: 2/18/2008
| 3/8/2008 10:15:50 PM
I've installed, Owned a Retail Store, worked as a manufacturers Rep and now an inspector.
I hated the Retail Business. I made a lot of money, but putting up with the Demanding consumer on one hand then having listen to the whinning installer on the other hand drove me to drink.
We paid the installers for everything they did and we made a profit on the labor. We had to mark up the entire package (Carpet, cushion, Installatino) to pay for the Secretary, Advertising, Building, Taxes, Insurances, ect... but the installers were angered by the profit earned on thier labor...
That is why I say:: all installers should open a retail store so they know the demands and costs of maintaining the retailer outlet...
I have no objection to the installer earning a good living the same as I wanted the salespeople to earn a high income...........
Retailers are the backbone of the Industry. Nothing is sold or installed without the retailer.. simple as that..
So why all the animosity towards retailers from Installers?
x
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Jim Ryan
Posts: 958
Since: 1/12/2008
| 3/8/2008 10:45:23 PM
quote:
I've installed, Owned a Retail Store, worked as a manufacturers Rep and now an inspector.
I hated the Retail Business. I made a lot of money, but putting up with the Demanding consumer on one hand then having listen to the whinning installer on the other hand drove me to drink.
We paid the installers for everything they did and we made a profit on the labor. We had to mark up the entire package (Carpet, cushion, Installatino) to pay for the Secretary, Advertising, Building, Taxes, Insurances, ect... but the installers were angered by the profit earned on thier labor...
That is why I say:: all installers should open a retail store so they know the demands and costs of maintaining the retailer outlet...
I have no objection to the installer earning a good living the same as I wanted the salespeople to earn a high income...........
Retailers are the backbone of the Industry. Nothing is sold or installed without the retailer.. simple as that..
So why all the animosity towards retailers from Installers?
x
Well Ray, it seems some retailers believe they are good guys and maybe they are, but for many installers, they weren't. They threatened us many times with,--if you say too much, our retail association will blackball you from this town. They also threatened us with the IRS, when most installers after paying 1/3 of our pay to the helper, 25 to 30 % to supplies, maybe 10% to the fuel bill, probably 15% to our truck and insurance payment, we had enough to pay most of our bills. If we got a speeding ticket, for running at every moment as we were taught Ray, we ate bologna sandwiches for a week.
Just something for you to consider--as you seem not to know of such things. It's not really a big deal Ray, the retailers never felt what we and our children did Ray, so no big deal.
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Jim Ryan
Posts: 958
Since: 1/12/2008
| 3/8/2008 10:57:48 PM
Maybe you can tell Ray, I am an angry man, but not just for me Ray, but for my daughter, and every other installer and his daughters and sons.
There is so much pain and agony that can be heaped on these men and their children, for which, we dads are eternally little more than garbage, as our children are hurt by our ignorance and dedication to our jobs, for we have nothing else.
We can only hope you and others never have to know of such anger, hatred and futility.
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