| Author | Message |
Ray Darrah 
Posts: 1411
Since: 2/18/2008
|  7/1/2008 12:32:13 PM 
This past 4 or 5 weeks, I don't think it would be an exaggeration to say I've inspected over a million dollars in flooring failures.
90% were due to basic installation failures, and I mean basic. The installers did not follow the very basic installation guidlines, one way or another.
When installers try to convince me on message boards that Inspectors should have installation background/experience;;;;;;;;; I don't agree.
I don't agree because it does not take an installation background to OBSERVE and compare findings observed to the Installation standards.
This, combined with what I see DAILY, I think an installation background for inspectors is a negative; not a positive.
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David Kern
Posts: 518
Since: 2/20/2008
| 7/1/2008 12:45:15 PM
How would someone know basic installation guidelines without having at least some installation background/experience?
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Ray Darrah
Posts: 1411
Since: 2/18/2008
| 7/1/2008 1:12:54 PM
David,
All you have to do is read the installation guidlines and specifications.
This is not rocket science, this is easy.
1. Is the sub-floor clean, flat?
How does it take an installer to see if the sub-floor is clean and flat?
2. Stretch the carpet.. How does it take installation experience to know if the carpet is stretched 1.0 to 1.5% in both length and width? Just look for pin holes and tiger marks on the backing.
3. Installing solid wood direct to concrete. I can see if the wood is solid and I can see if the concrete is directly under the adhesive. Tell me how I need to have been an installer to see this?
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Stephen Perrera
Posts: 823
Since: 5/27/2008
| 7/1/2008 3:45:04 PM
1. Is the sub-floor clean, flat?
How does it take an installer to see if the sub-floor is clean and flat?
How do you tell if the floor is not clean and flat under a floating floor unless you tear it out? And I mean more than a ten foot area?
2. Stretch the carpet.. How does it take installation experience to know if the carpet is stretched 1.0 to 1.5% in both length and width? Just look for pin holes and tiger marks on the backing.
But inspectors that only pull up the "set" walls will hardly ever see extensive tiger tracks. If you do not understand stretching techniques and the whole range of different backings...you may never find any.
3. Installing solid wood direct to concrete. I can see if the wood is solid and I can see if the concrete is directly under the adhesive. Tell me how I need to have been an installer to see this?
You can install solid wood on concrete Mr. IN-pector. This coming from a supposed inspector with installation experience is shocking. And one that showed himself using a CME on adhesive residue claiming high readings is well......not so shocking.
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Ray Darrah
Posts: 1411
Since: 2/18/2008
| 7/1/2008 4:01:25 PM
- who said anything about excessive concrete vapor on SOLID wood glued direct to concrete? I knew you would fall for that one !! You are so anxious to make others look bad, you failed to see the facts> !!
- IS there adhesive under the meter? NO!
- Stephen; You continue to state there should be no pin holes on set walls. I disagree. The carpet should not be loose layed on top of the strip. There should be pin holes, not tiger marks, on set walls;; however, if stretched properly there will be secondary yarn distortion due to the stress. Stop with the claim there is nothing found on set walls as there is much to learn from lifting set walls. Corners are a different story.
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Selva Lee Tucker
Posts: 634
Since: 5/25/2008
| 7/1/2008 4:13:33 PM
interesting,
no comment.
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Ray Darrah
Posts: 1411
Since: 2/18/2008
| 7/1/2008 5:22:07 PM
go ahead and say something.
Stephen missed it. SOlid glued direct to concrete... not supposed to do that no matter what the M. vapor is.
Simple as that... keyword: SOLID
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Rusty Baker
Posts: 111
Since: 6/7/2008
| 7/1/2008 5:38:51 PM
As far as stretching the carpet goes, those are guidelines. Sofbac will not stretch that far and there is crapet out there that will stretch twice that much. It takes an installer to know how much they will stretch.
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David Kern
Posts: 518
Since: 2/20/2008
| 7/1/2008 5:43:41 PM
quote:
go ahead and say something.
Stephen missed it. SOlid glued direct to concrete... not supposed to do that no matter what the M. vapor is.
Simple as that... keyword: SOLID
There are exceptions to this, Ray. Some manufacturers (such as Bruce) allow their 5/16 solid wood to be direct glued to a concrete slab...
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Selva Lee Tucker
Posts: 634
Since: 5/25/2008
| 7/1/2008 6:18:19 PM
NOFMA now allows solid glued, there are "rules and guidelines"
but, there is now a NOFMA tech paper on it on the site,
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Dan Wachtel
Posts: 72
Since: 3/17/2008
| 7/1/2008 6:20:01 PM
I cannot agree that it is a negative. I do think that understanding the manufacturing process is as big of a plus as installation experience.
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Ray Darrah
Posts: 1411
Since: 2/18/2008
| 7/1/2008 6:35:18 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
go ahead and say something.
Stephen missed it. SOlid glued direct to concrete... not supposed to do that no matter what the M. vapor is.
Simple as that... keyword: SOLID
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There are exceptions to this, Ray. Some manufacturers (such as Bruce) allow their 5/16 solid wood to be direct glued to a concrete slab...
Are you sure? Not without a moisture barrier !!
and Certainly not 3/4" x 4" plank as was shown and stated.
Bruce makes a 3/8" product that they say can be glued direct;;; but with moisture limits. I'll have to check the new specifications. Have not seen a failure with that 3/8" product since being here in Florida. I don't work for that National Service.
But,, I think it is called Natural Reflections?
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Ray Darrah
Posts: 1411
Since: 2/18/2008
| 7/1/2008 6:43:59 PM
Glue-Down Applications: Armstrong warrants that the covered 5/16″ solid hardwood flooring products, when properly installed with our Armstrong EverLAST Premium Urethane Adhesive according to our installation instructions
(including proper subfloor moisture testing), will not release from the subfloor for as long as you (the original
purchaser) own your floor. This means that prior to installation, your subfloor should be inspected to ensure it does not exceed maximum allowable moisture levels. To ensure your warranty remains effective, keep your proof of preinstallation
moisture test results. All concrete subfloors should be tested and results documented for moisture content.
If subfloor exceeds maximum allowable moisture levels, the subfloor must be allowed to dry or Armstrong VapArrest™
S-135 Professional Moisture Retardant System should be used. Subfloors with known moisture problems are not
covered by the warranty. This is a one-time repair and replacement warranty only.
--------------------------------------------
Yes, they gaurentee it will not release if using thier adhesive. But if the concrete has too much moisture to use a vapor barrier.
The question:: What are the the allowable moisture levels.??
DRY—Check and document moisture content of the subfloor using the appropriate moisture test. Concrete subfloors
must be a minimum of 30 days old before testing begins. Moisture content of wood subfloor must not exceed 13%
on a wood moisture meter, or read more than a 4% difference than moisture level of product being installed.
and it is 5/16", not 3/8".. my mistake.
this is interesting:
Subfloors with Radiant Heat
NOTE: Do not install this product over subfloors with radiant heat.
5/16″ solid hardwood flooring can be glued directly to on-grade concrete with a minimum compressive strength of 3,000
PSI. Do not install over a concrete sealer or painted concrete. If present, remove by grinding or sanding. Do not install
over slick, heavily troweled or burnished concrete. Roughen the surface as necessary by sanding or grinding. Use an
appropriate NIOSH-designated dust mask.
Concrete Moisture Tests:
Tramex Concrete Moisture Encounter Meter (Figure 3): Moisture readings
should not exceed 4.5 on the upper scale. (Figure 3 shows an unacceptable
reading of over 4.5)
Calcium Chloride Test (ASTM F 1869): The maximum moisture transfer must not exceed 3 lbs./1000 ft.2 in 24 hrs. with
this test.
What a problem now.. Does anybody else see the problem?
4.5 on the Tramex C.M.E.
3# on CC testing.
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Ray Darrah
Posts: 1411
Since: 2/18/2008
| 7/1/2008 6:45:16 PM
then 3000# psi strength concrete...
That is commercial specification. Most homes are psi 2000 to 2500 max.
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Roger Gerber
Posts: 327
Since: 3/17/2008
| 7/1/2008 6:59:16 PM
Even NOFMA is now on the bandwagon. Here is the link.
https://www.nofma.org/Portals/0/Publications/NOFMA_TIP_Adhesive_Web.pdf
Yes it says solids and eventalks of 3-5 inch boards.
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Stephen Perrera
Posts: 823
Since: 5/27/2008
| 7/1/2008 7:23:35 PM
Better start back tracking there Mr. In-pector.
- who said anything about excessive concrete vapor on SOLID wood glued direct to concrete? I knew you would fall for that one !! You are so anxious to make others look bad, you failed to see the facts> !!
- IS there adhesive under the meter? NO!
I don't know who said anything about excessive concrete vapor on SOLID wood glued direct to concrete? I know I didn't in this thread...let me double check......oh yea in reference to that picture you posted over at flooringinstaller.com. Definetly had adhesive residue on it cus you said you did not grinfd the slab. But as I said...you can install solid wood on concrete. You made no mention of any sort of barrier in the part I quoted from you. You said this :
3. Installing solid wood direct to concrete. I can see if the wood is solid and I can see if the concrete is directly under the adhesive. Tell me how I need to have been an installer to see this?
Question....when adhesive is troweled onto concrete will residue reside in the pores of the concrete causing a false positive when read with a CME?
Another....when checking substrates...specifically concrete will a bond breaker give you a false positive as dewpoint will with a CME?
Another...when performing a CaCl test why are you directed to grind the surface area? Should I answer those for you?
Apparently you do need to be an installer and read that extensive library too!
Last Edited 7/1/2008
7:31:17 PM
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Stephen Perrera
Posts: 823
Since: 5/27/2008
| 7/2/2008 9:34:04 AM
Well Ray? Ignoring my questions are ya?
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Selva Lee Tucker
Posts: 634
Since: 5/25/2008
| 7/2/2008 9:54:32 AM
children, children,
anger and slander,
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Stephen Perrera
Posts: 823
Since: 5/27/2008
| 7/2/2008 9:17:19 PM
I can't believe Ray does not know you can glue solids. How many installers has the guy hung on that one I wonder.
Ray, my questions are not to embarrass you. Nothing says you cannot stick your CME down on contaminated concrete and read a false positive if you want.
But really, think about why they people who make the rules want you to grind the concrete for a CaCl test and do not say anything about grinding for a CME.
Besides that a CME is not quantitative and proves nothing. So wy did you even take a picture of it unless you were trying to hang the installer?
I will not allow you to bury this thread so...since you expect me to sit here and answer your dumb posts then you better answer mine.
Last Edited 7/2/2008
9:19:01 PM
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Hugh Scott
Posts: 194
Since: 6/1/2008
| 7/2/2008 10:59:11 PM
I will not glue down solid nor will i advise it.
But they have been doing for awhile in AZ and other areas.
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