| Author | Message |
Ray Darrah 
Posts: 1411
Since: 2/18/2008
|  6/27/2008 3:45:17 PM 
There are Organizations, and enough schools to certify, that all installations should be installed by certified installers to validate manufacturer warranties.
Too many failures due to lack of ability and knowledge to continue with 'business as usual' practices the flooring industry is using. Time to License all Installers through Approved Certification Programs.
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Stephen Perrera
Posts: 823
Since: 5/27/2008
| 6/27/2008 4:44:38 PM
Tell the lowball retailers who only want to pay the least amount for installation.
Most retailers are the contractor and therefore should be held responsible for proper training of their installers. And documenting that they are capable of installing the product they are sent out with.
And just think, if all this did happen and installers were to be certified for each different flooring product we might actually not need inspectors. Ha ha
Last Edited 6/27/2008
4:46:40 PM
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Ray Darrah
Posts: 1411
Since: 2/18/2008
| 6/27/2008 4:50:17 PM
I agree with you Steven.
But I don't agree that manufacturers should be responsible for training ALL installers.
WHY??? As a retailer; we held installation clinics at our shop/warehouse every quarter. We invited all installers and our competitors' installers as well.
Nobody would show up most of the time because we did not serve beer. We had coke/pepsi, finger foods and instruction on Friday Afternoons. 3 to 5 p.m., Every three months.
We would have Armstrong one quarter, then mannington then Bruce... then Kahrs.... to show everybody the "little tricks" of the trade.
We had, at most, 10 guys show up and we even scheduled work a bit light so they could all come.
We ran 12 to 15 crews and still only 5 to 10 would show up to participate.
Why bother having a party if nobody shows up? It was very discouraging.
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Stephen Perrera
Posts: 823
Since: 5/27/2008
| 6/27/2008 6:50:32 PM
Well if they were real employees you could have made it mandatory. But we all know retailers try...no have for about thirty years, been skirting the law when it comes to sub-contractors vs employees for monetary benefit so they do not have to pay taxes.
So don't gimme that horse crap.
Last Edited 6/27/2008
6:50:51 PM
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Rusty Baker
Posts: 111
Since: 6/7/2008
| 6/27/2008 7:17:36 PM
Certification should be a free test. After 35 years in this business, why should I pay someone a couple thousand dollars for a piece of paper. Besides, being certified doesn't mean they are not going to take shortcuts on the job. We have all seen lousy certified auto mechanics, plumbers, electricians, etc.
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Ray Darrah
Posts: 1411
Since: 2/18/2008
| 6/27/2008 7:58:45 PM
What would be your plan?
Why hire employees when you can sub-contract?
Don't blame retailers for giving sub-contractors the opportunity to work and support families.
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Rusty Baker
Posts: 111
Since: 6/7/2008
| 6/27/2008 8:10:57 PM
I think it falls on the retailer. Pay a decent wage and you will get good installers. Most of the installers do a good job anyway. And you will never get rid of all the bad ones. Check references. Inspect jobs. Make sure you have someone who can check on the installers, who knows if they are doing a good job. Offer training on new products. Give updates. Treat them like human beings. Most of the retailers I have worked for thru the years treated installers like crap. Be decent to an installer and he will do a better job.
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Ray Darrah
Posts: 1411
Since: 2/18/2008
| 6/27/2008 8:23:04 PM
If the Retailer wants happy customers and wants repeat business and a good reputation;;;;;;;;;; He is required to have good installers that are dependable and trained.
Then he needs to pay them to keep them.
The Box Stores charge LOTS of money for installation proving consumers are willing to pay. They buy from Box Stores because they think Bigger is Better and will be around next year to service their purchase should the need arise.
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Hugh Scott
Posts: 194
Since: 6/1/2008
| 6/27/2008 9:27:48 PM
I concur with you both.
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Stephen Perrera
Posts: 823
Since: 5/27/2008
| 6/28/2008 2:41:47 PM
Big Boxes here are about the lowest paying when it comes to their employees. But they use a contractor/shop. Just another cut out of the pie.
I've always paid my own way for schools and certs.
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Ray Darrah
Posts: 1411
Since: 2/18/2008
| 6/28/2008 5:53:56 PM
what schools, what certs?
I know you say you've been to the Hardwood Installation School.
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Hugh Scott
Posts: 194
Since: 6/1/2008
| 6/28/2008 7:12:12 PM
Heck I have been to enough schools to a paper my walls with but nothing matters like on the job training.
Went to my first Armstrong school when I was 22 but I had more on the job training than the teacher, same thing with many other schools.
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Ray Darrah
Posts: 1411
Since: 2/18/2008
| 6/28/2008 8:55:20 PM
Well Heck Hugh,
I'm patient... give us a list of certifications.. 
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Hugh Scott
Posts: 194
Since: 6/1/2008
| 6/28/2008 10:04:57 PM
Armstrong,Mannington,Witex,Imagine,Columbia Southern,Domco,Tarkett,Mapei,Hardi,Pergo,Noble House to name a few, and invited to others I cannot even remember.
My dad was a old sewing pro that had a hard time accepting the seaming iron. I grew up around horseshoe needles old roberts knee kickers.
Beleive it or not by the time I was old enough to gain interest he was no longer installing just selling and I never learned to sew I wished I would have.
My main certification is 26 years in the; "School of Hard Knocks"
I started the CFI courses but when I found out they were giving away certificates to helpers that sat in the room and watched the vidoes. (That showed many improper install procedures.) I pack up me little lunch kit and never came back.
The local CFI guy was/is the lowest paying shop in area he(Rod Von Bush) was certifying with vidoes that reminded me of the 8th grade.
(He is still the lowest paying he pays 2.75 per yd for on the road commercial work)He has no work locally that I know off.
I did not have time that nor did I have time to scab out my labor.
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Hugh Scott
Posts: 194
Since: 6/1/2008
| 6/28/2008 10:08:23 PM
The Columbia Southern School was a joke, they guy got all through with his board replacement and had a 1/16 lip around the whole board.
I told him: Your customers might accept that but mine will not.
Needless to say he did not like me by days end.
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Rusty Baker
Posts: 111
Since: 6/7/2008
| 6/28/2008 10:46:04 PM
Hugh , a friend of mine did wood and ceramic for his mother's Carpet One. He showed me a letter and video he recieved from CFI. It offered him a certification if he watched the video and mailed them a check. He didn't follow thru because he didn't install carpet and had no interest in installing it.
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Hugh Scott
Posts: 194
Since: 6/1/2008
| 6/29/2008 10:53:33 AM
Rusty, I told them over at FCI about this years ago, they refuted me said it never happened.
(They refute everything I say over there)
The somebody checked into it,might have been Daris and found they were doing it when CFI started,and the local guy was milking installer with false certifications, that guy is still the only certifier in this area.
It has created a sterotype for me, when I hear guys bragging about CFI certs it gives me gas. Then the gas make me laugh.....Or the laughing gives me gas..... anyway the end result is a stinky laughable mess.
I do have to say I have one installer that has a cert he got it honestly but it do not use him because fot he is a cert I use him because he is top notch installer.
The door swings both ways on the cert issue.
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Rusty Baker
Posts: 111
Since: 6/7/2008
| 6/29/2008 11:57:33 AM
Hugh, this wasn't back when CFI started, this was only a couple of years ago.
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David Kern
Posts: 518
Since: 2/20/2008
| 6/29/2008 12:08:24 PM
quote:
Hugh, this wasn't back when CFI started, this was only a couple of years ago.
Rusty,
You'd think someone (higher up) would take notice and put a stop to this charade of 'video certifications'.
The only thing this type of behavior does is denigrate the entire certification process and those associated with it...
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Stephen Perrera
Posts: 823
Since: 5/27/2008
| 6/29/2008 12:14:15 PM
But I don't agree that manufacturers should be responsible for training ALL installers.
Neither do I but they should have some involvement to a degree.
How much would it really take out of their billion dollar profits to run a school like Ardex does or other manufactures like that? I think Ardex is a tad bit samaller corporation that any of the mills.
Last Edited 6/29/2008
12:15:15 PM
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