| Author | Message |
Darian Brown 
Posts: 712
Since: 2/5/2008
|  6/11/2008 1:36:42 PM 
A display showing -5.8 means an error has occurred
The display that ray is showing 15.8 and Jerry is saying -5.8 means an error has occurred. So which one is right Ray or Jerry?
I think I need more beer for this one.
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Roland Thompson
Posts: 281
Since: 2/27/2008
| 6/11/2008 11:06:04 PM
I think Ray said in his first post that he checked it 2 times one in the afected area and one in an unfected area and that is the area with the -5.8.
I have one just like Rays and also Wagner and a few others you need to be carefull not to pull readings from substrate.
FD
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Stephen Perrera
Posts: 823
Since: 5/27/2008
| 6/11/2008 11:32:46 PM
Ray gave me hell for posting a pic of my pin meter in a laminate joint years ago. Now it's his turn. 
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Selva Lee Tucker
Posts: 634
Since: 5/25/2008
| 6/11/2008 11:35:03 PM
quote:
I said "place gently" into the joint. I place the
probe into the joint, not pound it in.
Remember: Pin meters don't read "water". They read
"conductivity".
When I'm performing this test, I'm getting a CONDUCTIVE
READING.
Negative 5.8 says there is nothing CONDUCTIVE there and says
"hey, there are no conductive contaminants here".
A positive reading says "HEY< I GOT SOMETHING ON ME"..
ok, since the meter is not accurate below 6,,,,are you sure there
is nothing, moisture, below that? error message or just saying it
does not have the ability to measure below 6?
I talked to the guys at Delmhorst about using pin meters on
lamiate,,,they suggested after several questions, that the only
way to use one was to do several tests in different areas of the
room, using a grid, then, after establishing a base line, do the
test on visibly affected areas then no affected areas,,,, to get a
non quantitative reading,,,,maybe they have changed their minds
again or maybe they want increased sales?
is a wood meter designed to work on wood acceptable to work
on whatever the heck is in laminate cores, cap sheet and top
coat?
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Selva Lee Tucker
Posts: 634
Since: 5/25/2008
| 6/11/2008 11:37:00 PM
oh, isn't that the way you are supposed to, supposed TO, use a
moisture encounter. To first, establish a base line by multiple
readings in a grid pattern then test the affected area, then no
affected area to show a "comparison" between the two?
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Selva Lee Tucker
Posts: 634
Since: 5/25/2008
| 6/11/2008 11:42:01 PM
quote:
Further information on electric moisture meters:
"Electric moisture meters get that name because they measure
an electrical property of a piece of wood and convert that
measurement to a corresponding MC value, usually read directly
on the meter. Depending on the type and manufacturer of the
meter, the electrical property measured may be resistance,
conductance, dielectric constant or power loss factor. Because
meters read different electrical properties and electrical
properties are not perfectly aligned with MC, it is not surprising
that the actual MC readings vary."
If you look hard, you will find the original document on the
internet he got that from,,,,I think you can find it, or get it, from
the Forest Product lab and their studies on the different types of
meters. Since it is a govt. publication, it is ok to use it or quote
it, but I always like to give the source. I have a copy, I think on
my IDISK, I will look for it,
slt
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Jerry Thomas
Posts: 96
Since: 6/3/2008
| 6/12/2008 5:25:14 AM
That looks like a BD-2100 meter David , the same as I own. I don't see how one can establish an accurate baseline if the meter can't interpret it.
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Selva Lee Tucker
Posts: 634
Since: 5/25/2008
| 6/12/2008 4:54:22 PM
here is one publication, notice the date! been around a while,
I have another but it is over 140 pages,,,
I think, not sure, what the original post was meant to show us is
maybe, the meter is just reading that there is a current between
the two pins, not moisture? is that Mr. Ray?
For example, one inspector I know bragged to me he found
excessive moisture in rubber flooring,,,I asked how, he said with
his pin meter,,,,you guys figure that out,,,,but the fact is, anything
you stick with a pin meter will give you a reading, just not an
accurate measurement of moisture,,,,
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Selva Lee Tucker
Posts: 634
Since: 5/25/2008
| 6/12/2008 5:05:13 PM
I am having the roughest time trying to post a download, and just
figured out I can't!
ok, how about a link,
http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fplrn/fplrn008.pdf
hope this helps,
I have used this publication and a few others in "commentary
section" of reports where I and several others have inspected the
wood.
slt
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Ray Darrah
Posts: 1411
Since: 2/18/2008
| 6/12/2008 5:16:08 PM
Since I went to my first Carpet Cleaning Inspection course, we've used conductive testing for dog urine.
Urine is conductive.
The surface of the laminate is not conductive so it gets an error reading (- readings). If the surface had a conductive contaminant it would show a positive reading.
Stephen: I don't PROBE the pins into the laminate at the joint. I PLACE the pins into the joint to search for Conductive Contaminants.
This is very simple. Is there a conductive contaminant in the joint, or not? That is all i'm searching for with this test.
I guess there are few schools or training offered that teaches this anymore....
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Selva Lee Tucker
Posts: 634
Since: 5/25/2008
| 6/12/2008 6:02:23 PM
no, they don't, but this way, we get to have fun fussing at each
other,
slt
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Ray Darrah
Posts: 1411
Since: 2/18/2008
| 6/12/2008 7:19:05 PM
I can understand the installers and retailers not knowing this stuff.
I find it alarming that the inspectors do not know this basic information and indicative field testing procedures.
Excessive topical treatments and conductive probe testing was taught at the basic inspector and cleaning course in 1988... This is all basic stuff.
Purpose of sharing the information on conductive testing and the excessive topical treatments was to give the retailers and installers reading this board some insight into what they read in our reports.
Darian asks good questions. I appreciate good questions.
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Stephen Perrera
Posts: 823
Since: 5/27/2008
| 6/12/2008 7:30:01 PM
Is dried pet urine conductive? If it's wet when you get there the non-invasive meter will pick it up,yes?
If this test is so basic then why did you giveme guff about it years ago? I guesss I am light years ahead of you.
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Ray Darrah
Posts: 1411
Since: 2/18/2008
| 6/12/2008 7:31:26 PM
Stephen.
Is a NON-INVASIVE meter a conductive meter or Radio/resistance meter?
Does the NON-INVASIVE meter read the surface it touches or below the surface?
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Stephen Perrera
Posts: 823
Since: 5/27/2008
| 6/12/2008 7:39:25 PM
I said if it was still wet.
Stick your hand under one sometime and turn it on...what do you read?
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Ray Darrah
Posts: 1411
Since: 2/18/2008
| 6/12/2008 8:04:56 PM
You have me confused stephen.
Is what wet?
I think we all understand the non-invasives reading below the material and able to pick up your hand.
I don't understand your intent or point.
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Selva Lee Tucker
Posts: 634
Since: 5/25/2008
| 6/12/2008 8:48:12 PM
and if they had cleaned it off? would this work then?
I remember you always talking about this,,,got me,
one for Ray...just always remember, watching.
slt
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Ray Darrah
Posts: 1411
Since: 2/18/2008
| 6/12/2008 10:20:22 PM
watching?
Why not participate with posts of value to the readers?
There are many readers on this site.
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Stephen Perrera
Posts: 823
Since: 5/27/2008
| 6/13/2008 12:14:36 AM
I', just asking a simple question....is dried pet urine conductive or not?
I've read about the conductivity of spots in carpet but......
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Jerry Thomas
Posts: 96
Since: 6/3/2008
| 6/13/2008 3:55:46 AM
Ray, you keep missing a rather obvious point.
This meter will always display -5.8 when it detects an error.... it never says -5.6 or -5.7 or -5.9..... it always displays -5.8.
It is not capable of detecting anything in the negative range.
Countless times i have stuck wood flooring and or subfloors with this meter and got that -5.8 display. What it telling you is to stick me again partner... I was not able to read that. That is all that message is telling you.
Try it your self on some wood. Every so often you will get that display.
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