| Author | Message |
Darian Brown 
Posts: 712
Since: 2/5/2008
|  4/11/2008 7:07:41 PM
I really thought there would be at lest one hard surface guy saying something about this. Ray's not joking here and this very well could happen. Oh well cracks in concrete is really no problem for a glue down carpet. But hard surface installers need worry about there jobs.
Ray your right but it's not the carpet industry that needs to worry. It is the hard surface industry with the problem. So keep on going Ray your right on target here with post.
Last Edited 4/11/2008
7:25:25 PM
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David Kern
Posts: 518
Since: 2/20/2008
| 4/11/2008 7:27:21 PM
Having been a licensed tile/marble contractor, I can say with all seriousness that 90-95% of all of the new slabs I installed tile on had cracks.
I have never had a call-back concerning cracked or lifting tile. This is why:
1. On all new slabs, I sold and installed quality crack-suppression paper.
2. On all of my jobs, regardless of whether cracks existed or not, I used full-flex thinset.
The investment was well worth it. Consider a base-grade thinset approved by the TCA costs around 3-4 dollars per 50lb. bag and offers absolutly no protection against settlement cracks or movement.
Full-flex thinset costs around $15 per 50lb. bag, and offers the best protection against settlement cracks and movement. Like I said earlier, I have never had a call-back for these issues in the many years I have installed.
I charged accordingly for the materials I used and had NO PROBLEMS convincing my customers of the need for such measures.
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Darian Brown
Posts: 712
Since: 2/5/2008
| 4/11/2008 7:56:25 PM
David its all in the product used I'm guessing. I don’t know all that much about tile. Although I have seen some kind of paper put down and the used carpet glue is that right?
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David Kern
Posts: 518
Since: 2/20/2008
| 4/11/2008 8:31:34 PM
quote:
David its all in the product used I'm guessing. I don�t know all that much about tile. Although I have seen some kind of paper put down and the used carpet glue is that right?
The manufacturer of the crack suppression paper specifies the adhesive needed. It is important to follow their recommendations so as not to void the warranty.
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Ray Darrah
Posts: 1411
Since: 2/18/2008
| 4/11/2008 9:25:08 PM
Darian..
I like it when they put felt paper down and use water based glue to adhere the paper to the concrete... It is a failure almost every time... it may take one year or 5 years, but it is a failure...
Good membranes are not adhered with multi-purpose adhesive..... trust me...
Good post Dave.... Concrete cracks anyway and we do not need concrete to crack any more than it already does.
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Darian Brown
Posts: 712
Since: 2/5/2008
| 4/11/2008 10:58:28 PM
Wow Ray if that is true some body's not going to like that news. Hay Ray you said up to 5 years the tile may have failure if you used carpet glue? I thought tile lasted forever. What happens to the customer then do they have to eat it or dose the seller eat it As far as FL. Law goes?
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David Kern
Posts: 518
Since: 2/20/2008
| 4/12/2008 12:00:16 AM
Unfortunately, the customer is left holding the bag. I have been called to come out and look at tile that is actually rising off the floor. There would be a large hump throughout the entire area (like a speed bump) and the tile would creak as you walked on it.
This is the next worst thing than tile developing cracks from a settlement issue.
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Ray Darrah
Posts: 1411
Since: 2/18/2008
| 4/12/2008 3:29:46 PM
Thank you David....
You, as administrator of this site, and ex-installer, have empathy for these kinds of installations where I, as an inspector, Revel in these cost cutting installations..
Business for an inspector is never really "THAT BAD".. because there are so many installations using time or money saving methods that result in failure....
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Darian Brown
Posts: 712
Since: 2/5/2008
| 4/12/2008 6:07:48 PM
Fly ash in concrete may have a bonding failure. What about fly ash in carpet is this being look at to.
http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/6743844-description.html
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Ray Darrah
Posts: 1411
Since: 2/18/2008
| 4/13/2008 9:38:08 AM
I did not know this.
Fly ash is a good bonding agent when used properly.
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Darian Brown
Posts: 712
Since: 2/5/2008
| 4/13/2008 5:39:28 PM
Ray your so right it is a good bonding agent when used properly. Its like mommas home made soup its always so good except when I was talking to momma and she lost her train of thought and put a little to much of something in the ingredients she would be so upset that it didn't turn out quite right.
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Ray Darrah
Posts: 1411
Since: 2/18/2008
| 4/13/2008 7:54:35 PM
The flooring industry will be seeing many changes due to the "GREEN" movement over the next 5 years.
I'm looking forward to them 
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Darian Brown
Posts: 712
Since: 2/5/2008
| 4/13/2008 10:23:45 PM
Me too. Green is good.
Edited by Admin 4/14/2008
4:22:38 PM
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Roland Thompson
Posts: 281
Since: 2/27/2008
| 4/15/2008 8:44:46 PM
Got my E-News from Lou today, Was a good response about the Fly Ash it looks like we have been going over it for many years.
I you have recieved it what do you think about that contract he talked about? Wopuld you ever sign one like that ?
FD
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Ray Darrah
Posts: 1411
Since: 2/18/2008
| 4/15/2008 9:55:24 PM
as long as they bring in the PCA and ACI..............
I look forward to the testing.
Without ACI and PCA,,, it will be nothing more than politics and slight of hand.
PCA: Portland Cement Association.
ACI: American Concrete Industry.
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Roger Gerber
Posts: 327
Since: 3/17/2008
| 4/15/2008 10:01:14 PM
quote:
I you have recieved it what do you think about that contract he talked about? Wopuld you ever sign one like that ?
FD
I have seen a few contracts like that, it is "run Forrest run". I remember one where they wanted to load all responsibility on the installation Company, no one bid on it so they amended it and still no one bid. They took the flooring out of the bid package and finally got it done, but without the shift in responsibility.
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Roland Thompson
Posts: 281
Since: 2/27/2008
| 4/15/2008 10:39:10 PM
Sorry guys I need to read my post better so I do not make as many mistakes with my spelling.
FD
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Ray Darrah
Posts: 1411
Since: 2/18/2008
| 4/16/2008 10:31:17 AM
One thing to always remember:
You cannot change the inherent characteristics of basic products.
Nylon is nylon.
Cement is Cement. Fly Ash is Fly Ash.
You also cannot change the Duty of the Industry Associations.
1. The Carpet and Rug Insitute is to help sell more carpet and hire lobbyists.
2. THe National Wood Flooring Association is to increase the sales of wood flooring and Train Installers.
3. The Fly Ash Association is to increase the Pounds of Fly Ash used and sold.
and so on.
Remember: Fly ash and Silica Fume are waste products...
Their turning crap into gold with "Bull"...
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Ray Darrah
Posts: 1411
Since: 2/18/2008
| 5/11/2008 9:05:14 PM
This major uproar/topic died all of a sudden.
David: Any News?
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David Kern
Posts: 518
Since: 2/20/2008
| 5/14/2008 5:53:37 PM
I just talked to Lew and he said that there have been ongoing discussions with everyone involved concerning site pours in Dalton that would involve different levels of fly ash content.
There would then be testing done at each pour to determine at what percentage of fly ash in the concrete causes problems earlier discussed.
They need to coordinate all parties- as well as secure a suitable site to conduct the testing. They are also determining the overall cost of the project.
As soon as there is something conclusive to report, Lew will get back to me (as well as update the progress).
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