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| | | Author | Message | Jim Ryan 
Posts: 958
Since: 1/12/2008
|  2/19/2008 11:29:01 AM 
This site will be the place I do it. I have already introduced a lot more new thinking that no one else in this industry has, with a lot more coming with time.
Of course I'll spread it out so that the smartest people wanting to stay updated will visit this site daily or not.
I see that this industryrewards the morons that will attack the truth and the people telling it, because it doesn't make them money right at that moment and it dumbs down every installer that is too afraid or ignorant. We can all be afraid and ignorant in many things, but it is when we face those fears and ignorances and put them to the test, that we show our children and ourselves, that we are men willing to learn and stand-up on our own two feet.
By learning new things and standing-up for ourselves, this industry must change from within or lose most every court case out here.
To date, almost every single piece of tufted carpet is not a textile, but a hybrid and therefore, no installer can be made to pay for or perform even one restretch.
Of course if you let the mills and retailers walk over you, then you are no men I care to know, because you hurt all installers when you knuckle under to their tyranny and theft. There are many ways to steal from installers and this industry it seems has found them all.
If you are too afraid or you are unable to understand simple english, then you should just go to sites where they tell you what to think and offer no proof, but if you want to know a lot more and many things not even known or spoken of by anyone in this industry, simply keep coming back here and I will teach you to protect yourselves.
There's already quite a bit of new thinking on this board, not present anywhere else in this entire industry.
Maybe someone should post this to sites in many different countries, with my post on tufted carpet being a hybrid and no installer can be held responsible for the stretch, so either the retailers pay for any restretches or the mills--or both,--but no installer can be made liable for the industries deciets.
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| Ray Darrah
Posts: 1411
Since: 2/18/2008
| 2/19/2008 4:34:28 PM
Can you prove this statement?
Get lab tests?
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| Jim Ryan
Posts: 958
Since: 1/12/2008
| 2/19/2008 6:21:33 PM
quote:
Can you prove this statement?
Get lab tests?
I wrote this, but it's on the second page. Here's your proof.
If it goes to court!!
One might consider the definition of a textile the next time any court case is brought forth. The definition is,---A textile is a flexible material comprised of a network of natural or artificial fibers often referred to as thread or yarn.
Now consider, with todays carpet, yes it is only in part a textile, but it also has the makings of stone--or calcium carbonate--==marble dust. To any rational person, that means that carpet is no longer a textile, but rather a hybrid.
To prove such in a court of law, one merely needs to strip the secondary from the primary and rub your hand--or the judges hand across the backing. It feels like crushed rock--which it is compriused of just that.
I coined the phrase --brittle bond, because with such stone in the backing, the bond is fairly weak and it doesn't allow for the material to flex as a normal textile does. Carpet used to be a very flexible material when the mills used just laytex between the primary and secondary backing systems.
Turn any tufted piece of material over and look at the backing. Notice how the backing creates little windows. Now, look at how some windows are filled with the fillers. Those areas are severly restricted in movement--unless you stretch it so hard, that you break the bond, while other areas that the windows having almost no fillers will stretch much better.
That means the carpet---as a textile--cannot function as a textile, but rather as a hybrid, where the laws of physics cannot apply to carpet as a textile--as they have restricted its flexibility--by comparison to all other textiles.
With the mills being unable to regulate the flow of fillers equally, understanding the stretch and any kind of longevity is in serious doubt, hence understanding the feel and what must be done becomes paramount to not only the retailers that must guarantee one year, but to the installers as well.
When such paradoxes are created, all must suffer the headaches and associated costs. However, an inordinate amount of responsibility is placed on installers--which also reflects in part back on the retailers, which are all at the mercy of the mills and wheather they choose to give credit to the retailers. That still places far too much burden on the installers, as the stretch becomes a guessing game.
Carpet that is severly restricted by larger amounts of fillers create many more problems, as trying to cut the rocky fillers dull the knife blade immediately and the blade then tears the material to a degree, distorting the seam edge and making it necessary for the installer in many cases--if not all, to use seam sealere--which also carries inheirant problems--such as black lines at the seams--due to moisture, dirt and other foreign material--with a little time.
So, if you were a judge, who would you blame, knowing all these things?
I am writing this with the understanding that 37 years on the floor brings and working with carpet that had no fillers back in the beginning of tufted carpets--1971--thru today.
I've been a repairman since 1993, so I am constantly going behind installers and dealing with all these situations.
When a lot of fillers in the backing end-up in walk ways and the stretch has been restricted, quite a few cases will find that just in the walk areas, there will form wrinkles--but to verify, if you pull the carpet back, you should find the fillers have fallen out of the backing and onto the padding.
It is also likely that if there happens to be not much fillers in the backing in walkways, but there are a lot of fillers in the surrounding carpet, the walkways could also wrinkle.
Maybe you can understand why understanding what you feel in the stretch is so important. Yes, I can teach how and why, but then it must be in person and you must sign a contract that says you will not teach others.
I give a 5 year installation guarantee and I don't have even one complaint in the BBB, since 1993. No, that doesn't mean I'm anywhere near perfect, but it simply means that I have done well enough to keep from getting complaints.
You be the judge, just as all customers used to be the judge.
Many might say I set the bar too high, but then it seems to me, many set the bar too low.
Shouldn't there at least be a middle ground?
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| Ray Darrah
Posts: 1411
Since: 2/18/2008
| 2/19/2008 7:49:10 PM
Back in the 70's we had double jute backing. Jute, by its very nature, is absorbant. We also had natural lates.
Today, we have SBR latex used on plastic primary backing and secondary backing which is not absorbant.
The bond to the plastic is now mechanical in nature due to the inability of the plastics to absorb the latex.
The backings are "kissed" with latex/filler then the carpet is put through the oven to dry. The filler/latex on the secondary backing is required to achieve the mechanical bond.
Re-Stretch complaints, Buckling complaints are now low and is not a major problem.
How would you propose carpet be manufactured to eliminate the current need for fillers?
x
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| Jim Ryan
Posts: 958
Since: 1/12/2008
| 2/19/2008 9:55:33 PM
quote:
Back in the 70's we had double jute backing. Jute, by its very nature, is absorbant. We also had natural lates.
Today, we have SBR latex used on plastic primary backing and secondary backing which is not absorbant.
The bond to the plastic is now mechanical in nature due to the inability of the plastics to absorb the latex.
The backings are "kissed" with latex/filler then the carpet is put through the oven to dry. The filler/latex on the secondary backing is required to achieve the mechanical bond.
Re-Stretch complaints, Buckling complaints are now low and is not a major problem.
How would you propose carpet be manufactured to eliminate the current need for fillers?
x
You're an idiot to believe such, but then everyone has a right to be an idiot if they want to. you can't make a mechanical bond with rock,--dry soap or clay.
Want proof you're an idiot, here it is.--Go to your local grocery store and buy a pack og gillette--good news razors in the plastic container. Open the plastic conainer and see how it was put together and then come back and tell us again, that plastic cannot be directly glued to plastic--AND the nylon--olefin, wool or other material protruding from the bottom of the primary.
You sure make your inspection site look like dummies are running it. Perhaps you shouldn't either lie--because you don't know, or you're too incompetant to figure out when others are lying to you.
Detail what you mean by double jute back. Do you mean the primary and secondary, were both made of jute?
Restretches are going great guns for me and have been for many years now. You're talking about things you know nothing of.
I am at the heart of the restretch industry, as well as the repair industry.
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| Ray Darrah
Posts: 1411
Since: 2/18/2008
| 2/19/2008 10:27:14 PM
Maybe if you were to read what a mechanical bond is and what is required.
However;; Maybe it's better you explain how plastic bonds to sbr latex.
x
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| Jim Ryan
Posts: 958
Since: 1/12/2008
| 2/19/2008 10:35:28 PM
quote:
Maybe if you were to read what a mechanical bond is and what is required.
However;; Maybe it's better you explain how plastic bonds to sbr latex.
x
ZAHABIYA Chemical Industries_____Products_____
c) Zahabiya Universal Bonding Agent or Zahabiya SBR Latex Emulsion-161 ... very good adhesion on almost all the metallic, wooden, concrete and plastic ...
Are you really that stupid, that you can't go on-line and find almost anything you want to know?
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| Ray Darrah
Posts: 1411
Since: 2/18/2008
| 2/19/2008 10:39:24 PM
Are you saying the bond is by adhesion? We are talking about carpet and sbr latex for bonding the sandwich... what are you talking about?
Why did we have all those delamination problems in the 1980's before the manufacturer figured out how to make SBR latex and plastic bond?
x
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Transmitted: 5/12/2026
11:58:35 AM
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