1/24/2008
10:00:36 AM 

The carpet is a heavy berber, with a tan colored, laytex backing. I feel that the color of the backing is because of flame retardents, but I was sent a lot of pails of what seems laytex with the flame retardents, for which the people recieving the goods--the people that hired me--said the glue was to seal any cut edges, but that doesn't make sense, as they sent about 10--5 gal pails.

I'm calling the glue manu today to find out what I can as well as the carpet manu.

The berber is very stiff, so it's not likely to lay-out flat and it's going over a rubber pay.

If possible, I'd like to talk to others that have installed carpet in such a situation and if they used a double stick method with it--or would the glue---even with the flame retardent be too hazardous in such as airplanes?

2/4/2008
12:28:48 PM 

In my first post on this thread I said,--The carpet is a heavy berber, with a tan colored, laytex backing. I feel that the color of the backing is because of flame retardents,

It turns out I was wrong as to my thinking that the carpet for this plane already had a flame retardant.

When I first went to see the carpet, plane and speak to the people doing the hiring, they got the impression the liquid in the cans was sent to seal the edges of the carpet. I didn't know any better, so I didn't challenge them, but rather I said there was waaay too much for just sealing the edges, so I started calling around. I talked with 4 different people about the liquid in the cans. I thought at first it might be for a double stick, but the first person said it was not, but he also said you had to put it on the back. At that point nothing was adding-up. Put it on the back but don't glue it--huh, what the heck is going on.

I spoke with another person and that was the chemist. I had actually called him first, because the co's # was on the can. I asked about the product and ended-up unsure, but I think he mentioned putting it on the back.

It seems part of the problem was my fault for thinking the carpet already had fire retardant on the backing, because of the completely different color of the backing and because I learned when first talking to the people hiring me, was that all carpet on all planes had to have fire retardant on them. Well, it just so happens that the unregulated part of the industry--at least in this case sold the customer carpet that didn't have any fire retardant on the backing and that I would have to apply the fire retardant to the back of the carpet. The way I found out, was I talked to the seller of the carpet and after about 2 minutes of talking to him he came out and said that the stuff sent with the carpet was the fire retardant and that I was responsible for applying it too the carpet backing.

However, I didn't know there was a regulated part of the industry, strictly for commercial and corporate jets and then there was an unregulated part of the industry, where the carpet is sold directly to private plane owners.

In the area I came into, the owners plane was for private use--which I was told--even though this plane if set-up for commercial would hold probably 80 passangers.

When I first wernt to see the plane and the people doing the hiring were questioning me, they asked if I could meet their schedule and I said yes, I will be at your becon-call. They gave me a date and I moved my customers around to accomadate for the time. They then cancelled that dat and made it for a week later, so again I shuffled my customers. Two days after that they changed the date up a couple of days, so I shifted my customers once again.

I was suppossed to be there this morning to go to work. I was at the back gate as they instructed me to be and called the point man, I think he is second in command at 730 when I got to the gate. The gate was locked and I asked him to unlock the gate. He said someone would be there shortly, but by 8:30 no one was there. I called the man back, but his answering service picked-up, so I left a message. I waited till 9am and still no one showed. By that time it seemed clear that I had been had, so I turned around and went home. It's a two hour drive up and back, both times, along with all the phone calls I made and advised them of.

Anyway, I would say to this industry, that the unregulated part of the industry selling carpet, they need at the very least, some form of explicit literature to be taped to the rolls of carpet as well as taped to the cans of fire retardant---with proceedures for applying it--wheather that be by roller or sprayer, how thick the material needs to be--one or two coats and anything else they can think of.

Everythjing Depends on Everything Else,--just as--Everyone Depends on Everyone Else---EDEE

2/4/2008
4:41:26 PM 

3:30pm the man calls me back and asks where I am. I tell him I called him at 7:30 at the gate and so on and well, it seems I was at the wrong gate. hahahahahaha, I coulda swore I was at the right gate. Oh well, all the way back tomorrow.

Ya gotta make right everything you make wrong and that's why this post.

2/9/2008
7:34:18 AM 

Since no instructions came with the fire retardant, I've been pouring the retardant straight from the 5 gallon containers onto the back of the carpet and using a paint roller to spread it on with.

I'm guessing the more the merrier, so I'm laying it on thick.

It sure makes the carpet harder to cut.

From what I'm being taught, the installer needs to trace the pattern of the old carpet and put it back in the plane, but I resisted in the main salon, because as we all know that with time, carpet stretches and can be warped out of shape. I'd also point out that a plane flexes a lot.

When we brought down the first piece the guy showing me some things wanted to pattern the first piece. We laid it over the other carpet with the new carpet being laid face down and the old on top face down. I could see wrinkles in the old piece and an installer can never be sure of a straight alignment, so I cut it somewhat bigger all around.

The salon is cut-up by a leather couch on either side, 6 leather full sized chairs that remind me of recliners, only smaller and one coffee table with two round legs.

It also has a bigger table for eating or whatever--supported by one large, round, support.

There are protrusions for all these supports and if those round supports in the floor were not exactly right, well, lets just say that wouldn't be good with 80.00 a yard or more carpet.

So I cut the pattern bigger, laid the carpet in the salon, folded it back so I could see where to cut it from the back and work it into place.

You have to remember, the installer needs to get the carpet as flat as possible in-between all these protrusions, in the length and the width. You can't stretch the carpet as you would in a house and the installer has to consider how much the airframe flexes.

The old carpet was still in fairly good shape, but the new owner wanted a make-over. It was 100% thick wool--probably about 100.00 a yard or more and the secondary backing was almost non existant. The windows created by the backing were about 1/4" in circumference and it moved like a dish rag. The new carpet had a laytex backing and is fairly stiff. After applying the fire retardant--mixed with laytex--the smell portrayed the laytex--the carpet backing was even stiffer.

Everything in the plane is very high dollar, from the leather to the wood panel on the walls, clear coated to a high sheen. The wood is called "birds eye". I'd never seen it before so I asked about it. It is very high dollar.

Since the backing of the carpet is very stiff and VERY ABRASIVE, you can't touch the backing to the wood or anything else with the back of the carpet or you'll be eating possibly several hundred thousand dollars worth of wood panelling, if the new doesn't match almost perfectly.

Consider how installers have to fold carpet over on itself to work the carpet under doors. Yea, we hear a little rubbing on the bottom of the doors in homes--depending on how high the doors are, how thick the carpet and wheather we want to take down all the doors.

In this senario, there is no room for error, so the doors have to be pulled. When I first started in carpet, we moved out all the furniture, hung all the curtains, marked and removed all the doors and then installed the carpet. That is a production system, designed to make everything move faster and smoother. Now-a-days many of the doors are high enough so as to permit the flow of heat and air, so we don't have to mark and pull the doors, but with so much on the line, it's best in airplanes to remove the doors.

I had my straight edge in the plane and carefully leaned it against some vinly and caught hell for it. I know, it was a dumb thing to do. If anyone had accidently hit it, it would have cost big time to replace.

On planes, every tiny detail has to be observed, so everything takes a lot longer. The carpet has to be rolled-out on plastic and worked there. Shop dust is all thru the air, so plastic needs to be changed from one day to the next, because you have to lay it over on its face.

I'm developing a system as to the order of things, to cut down on some of the excessive time lost, due to the different phases, where the carpet goes in and out of the plane several times per piece.

Instead of tack-strip, they use velcro. It can be stretched a little, but one has to remember the flex in the airframe, and not try to stretch much at all--or it will pull away from its velcro base as the airframe flexes.

Even knowing all these things will not prepare you very well for all that must be observed. As with all things, no one and no carpet is perfect, hence my afore-mentioned statement, that if you can't make a seam pretty much invisible, don't even try to break into this part of the industry, because we all make mistakes--even the best of us.

2/9/2008
8:54:32 AM 

Almost forgot. In using the velcro system instead of tack-strip, the back of the carpet is painted with 3m contact adhesive--#1357. When they install the velcro that already has a sticky back that is suppossed to be laid on and hammered into place, this industry paints the back of the carpet with the contact adhesive first and then they hammer it into place with a rubber mallet, covered by it seems--vinyl.

On the walls of the aircraft, they use contact for the carpet base, but they only paint the walls and not the back of the carpet and I understand why--as when we removed it, it came off without much trouble, but it still held its place. Yes, contact is suppossed to be used on the walls and carpet for a really good bond, but not in this case and not on boats either--as it seems to translate for me.

2/19/2008
10:50:56 PM 

this would be a good one to show in photos.


x

2/20/2008
6:56:16 AM 

Good point Jim.

What does that look like in a photo???