| Author | Message |
Darian Brown 
Posts: 712
Since: 2/5/2008
|  2/8/2008 9:16:53 PM 
Once these ACSI standards have been established, they will be the mandatory installation rules for installing carpet, not a voluntary guideline like the current CRI 104 and 105.
My question to you is do you think they will have stretching standard over different pads as well. If not do you think there is a differences when stretching over a moisture barrier pad than a plain rebond pad.
Last Edited 2/9/2008
11:08:35 PM
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Jim Ryan
Posts: 958
Since: 1/12/2008
| 2/8/2008 11:47:44 PM
I.m ignorant on starching, can you help?
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Darian Brown
Posts: 712
Since: 2/5/2008
| 2/9/2008 6:31:09 PM
Well one clings to the pad and one will not.
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Jim Ryan
Posts: 958
Since: 1/12/2008
| 2/9/2008 8:19:38 PM
I got my iron, I'm ready. I'll iron the hell outa them-there starches.
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Darian Brown
Posts: 712
Since: 2/5/2008
| 2/9/2008 11:04:48 PM
I'm sorry I meant stretches
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Jim Ryan
Posts: 958
Since: 1/12/2008
| 2/10/2008 12:10:08 AM
The mills can dictate whatever they want. The problem is making it stick. For the most part installers will remain ignorant, so the mills and retailers will get away with it.
A class action law-suit could change things, but that ain't gonna happen, so basically we're looking at more of the same.
Installers with any smarts can beat the mills and retailers in court, while the ignorant installers will fall by the wayside. The numbers lend themselves to the mills and retailers, so again, no change.
Since carpet can no longer be considered as a textile--because of all the fillers, any 10th grade installer could win in a court of law, but me thinks they are--for the vast majority, too stupid or too afraid,--another side effect of different entities, including those that say they represent installers.
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Darian Brown
Posts: 712
Since: 2/5/2008
| 2/10/2008 9:52:57 AM
The say one can make a differences. who has the time the old timers got us here and it's time the stand up and help.
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Jim Ryan
Posts: 958
Since: 1/12/2008
| 2/10/2008 2:49:55 PM
When 98% of the installers on-line fight with each other for what they think is their air-time, there is no way any one guy can make any changes, at least not that I know of.
These on-line installers want a guy leading them that's just a good ol boy they can sit down and have a beer with. They hate anyone smarter than they are. It's very much like how americans vote for candidates, nice hair, nice clothes, able to sit down and have a beer with em and that's about all they want in a candidate.
There isn't going to be any change in this industry.
Before you pass judgement on me, you might do some checking first.
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Jim Ryan
Posts: 958
Since: 1/12/2008
| 2/10/2008 3:02:48 PM
quote:
The say one can make a differences. who has the time the old timers got us here and it's time the stand up and help.
The old timers didn't get you here, I'm 55 and I was one of the very first installers, when tufted carpets first hit the market. I was 17 years old.
Let me ask you, what do your customers know of our trade?
Can you tell them how to compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges? If so, please tell us how and if not,--then you should understand what this industry wants. Don't push it, no one in this industry wants it heard.
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Darian Brown
Posts: 712
Since: 2/5/2008
| 2/10/2008 10:46:16 PM
Not much. Most of customers are from word of mouth
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Jim Ryan
Posts: 958
Since: 1/12/2008
| 2/11/2008 6:11:14 AM
So if carpet installers for the most part don't know how to shop and compare, it should be easy to understand that the industry makes more money by keeping us and the consumers in the dark, will it matter?
Of course you and your customers can shop and compare--if you are taught how.
I would ask why you would want to know such,--when the industry teaches consumers that installers aren't worth much and consumers complain when they have to pay better installers a little more money.
Just let the industry and half-assed installers do what they want. Most consumers just want low price--even when retailers get huge profits for just selling it.
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Ray Darrah
Posts: 1411
Since: 2/18/2008
| 2/19/2008 7:33:54 AM
quote:
The old timers didn't get you here, I'm 55 and I was one of the very first installers, when tufted carpets first hit the market. I was 17 years old.
Let me ask you, what do your customers know of our trade?
Can you tell them how to compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges? If so, please tell us how and if not,--then you should understand what this industry wants. Don't push it, no one in this industry wants it heard.
you are 55 and was one of the first to install tufted carpets at age 17?
Mr. Ryan, Me thinks you should check your history of tufted carpet. Tufted carpet was huge by the 1960's.....
Last Edited 2/19/2008
7:35:48 AM
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Jim Ryan
Posts: 958
Since: 1/12/2008
| 2/19/2008 8:07:46 AM
Tufting did start in the 40's and 50's with bed spreads and tufted carpets were being made in the 50's, but not until 1970 did tufted carpet become available in 12 foot rolls for the installation we see today.
The stores came about rather quickly in later 70 and early 71. The seaming iron, tape and tackstrip came about as well in about 1970.
I think it was also 1970, when this industry lobbied congress to make it so that every floor in every home had to be covered with wood, tile, linoleum or some form of covering to benefit the mills and retailers.
Pretty good when an industry can have congress mandate laws for them, way back then.
1970 or 71--depending on the opening of stores in each area, saw the retailers cut all the installers pay in half--and all the installers employed before the cutting in half of the installers money--quit--save the few the industry made deals with, to teach the following generations.
So in essence you're right, but as far as the installation industry, the opening of the stores and timing for the lobbiests to get that law passed points to 1970-1971--as the real kick-off for the tufted carpet in america--in its present form.
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Ray Darrah
Posts: 1411
Since: 2/18/2008
| 2/19/2008 4:29:31 PM
CRI: Carpet History:
Today, tufted products are more than 90 percent of the total, followed by less than 2 percent that are woven, and 6.7 percent for all other methods, such as knitted, braided, hooked, or needlepunched. By 1951, the tufting industry was a $133 million per year business made up primarily of bedspreads, carpet, and rugs, with carpet accounting for $19 million. The industry broke the billion dollar mark in 1963. Through the years, the Dalton area has continued to be the center of the tufted carpet industry, and today, the area produces more than 70 percent of the total output of the world-wide industry of over $9 billion. Dalton is now known as the "Carpet Capital of the World."
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Ray Darrah
Posts: 1411
Since: 2/18/2008
| 2/19/2008 5:14:55 PM
quote:
Tufting did start in the 40's and 50's with bed spreads and tufted carpets were being made in the 50's, but not until 1970 did tufted carpet become available in 12 foot rolls for the installation we see today.
The stores came about rather quickly in later 70 and early 71. The seaming iron, tape and tackstrip came about as well in about 1970.
I think it was also 1970, when this industry lobbied congress to make it so that every floor in every home had to be covered with wood, tile, linoleum or some form of covering to benefit the mills and retailers.
Pretty good when an industry can have congress mandate laws for them, way back then.
1970 or 71--depending on the opening of stores in each area, saw the retailers cut all the installers pay in half--and all the installers employed before the cutting in half of the installers money--quit--save the few the industry made deals with, to teach the following generations.
So in essence you're right, but as far as the installation industry, the opening of the stores and timing for the lobbiests to get that law passed points to 1970-1971--as the real kick-off for the tufted carpet in america--in its present form.
Tufted Carpet was not 12' wide until 1970?
12' width was in the 1950's.... We even had woven 12' materials in the 1950's. When we had to hand sew everything, even tufted carpet.. This I remember. 1970 was no "early in the Industry" year. Heat seam tapes were in the mid-60's and standard pratice by 1970.
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Jim Ryan
Posts: 958
Since: 1/12/2008
| 2/19/2008 6:17:18 PM
quote:
Tufted Carpet was not 12' wide until 1970?
12' width was in the 1950's.... We even had woven 12' materials in the 1950's. When we had to hand sew everything, even tufted carpet.. This I remember. 1970 was no "early in the Industry" year. Heat seam tapes were in the mid-60's and standard pratice by 1970.
Don't you know that in 1970 all the installers walked out and never came back, because the retailers cut all their pay in half, save a very few,--which they kept paying them the same price as before the retailers cut all the installers pay in half.
The reason being, was that the seaming iron, seam tape and tackstrip, all came together at that time, hence the cut in pay by half. That is when tufted carpets really took-off and that's when the mills and retailers lobbied congress to write laws saying all homes had to have some kind of floor covering.
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Ray Darrah
Posts: 1411
Since: 2/18/2008
| 2/19/2008 8:00:20 PM
County Building and City Building Permits required the "finished flooring", not the feds.
Nobody walked off the job. The Unions became weaker in the 1970's when installers, myself included, began contracting our labor on a price per yard basis.
There were many "specialty Stores" in the 1960's as well as carpet being sold by Furniture Stores, Department Stores and Warehouse Sales.
As stated by the CRI history, One Billion a Year Industry in the early 1960's after FHA approved Carpet in homes to qualify for FHA financing.
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Jim Ryan
Posts: 958
Since: 1/12/2008
| 2/19/2008 9:39:46 PM
quote:
County Building and City Building Permits required the "finished flooring", not the feds.
Nobody walked off the job. The Unions became weaker in the 1970's when installers, myself included, began contracting our labor on a price per yard basis.
There were many "specialty Stores" in the 1960's as well as carpet being sold by Furniture Stores, Department Stores and Warehouse Sales.
As stated by the CRI history, One Billion a Year Industry in the early 1960's after FHA approved Carpet in homes to qualify for FHA financing.
Prove it. Everything I experienced in Tampa Florida is exactly as it happened. Anyway, prove it was city and not the feds.
There were no unions in the southeast, as at least florida and some others were right to work states. You don't know squat about the southeast and what happened here.
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Ray Darrah
Posts: 1411
Since: 2/18/2008
| 2/19/2008 10:24:05 PM
Show me Federal Building Codes. Show them to us.
Homes have required finished flooring to aquire a loan.
The local building codes require the finished flooring. Easy enough to prove;; just log into the County Sites and County Building Codes online...
Feds? Sorry. You will have to show us the law or the Statute on that one.
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